Theoretical woodworking

An on-going study exploring traditional carpentry layout techniques.
Sebastian Gonzalez
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Re: Theoretical woodworking

Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:28 pm

Hi Francois

Thanks a lot for your time, I forgot to click the "notify me when a reply is posted" and the weekend went through. Indeed at first look the drawings seem really complex... thanks a lot for the scans, I will take a detailed look tomorrow morning. Maybe you would like to use dropbox? however I would not like to abuse of your patience, I know how long it takes to scan a book.

I don't know anything of carpentry in spanish. I think a mitre is called "inglete" and wood is madera, that's pretty much my knowledge of it. I was talking with my dad (he studied architecture) and they didn't teach this kind of drawing in his university back in the day. That may explain the poor chilean architecture. I'm learning the french terms with the charpente en bois, while at the same time getting the english translations from google since I don't know them either — a big, big mess.

Which brings me to the following, from the few books I've seen english draw just a line per piece while frenchies draw the whole thing (or seems so, they draw definitely more) and make it even more complicated. Is that so or just my limited sample/understanding?

Thanks for moving the post Chris, I didn't know where to put it. And hopefully you don't take it bad, I looked into the samples of your books and the contents seemed either too basic (the math part) or extremely complex and beyond my abilities (the rest of them). I'm not particularly interested in the hopper, but rather on how to understand the (making of the) drawings, like fig. 316. It seems to my that when you see those arc you are doing some rotations in the 3D space and projecting them into the plan, and I bet there is an algorithm for that, but haven't seen anywhere that explained. Like I can follow the explanation of the drawing but I miss the "why", and thus I cannot make one by myself. Most of the books I've seen seem to give you only recipes of how to do something, and I get the impression that they were written for people who already knew drawing, which is totally not my case.

I went back to "Wood joints in classical japanese architecture" today and understood the lay out for the hip rafter joint, the japanese way of drawing appears way clearer after reading some french. Do french drawings also have the joinery on them? I could only identify the joint between the hip and the boss but not much else. How much is it left to interpretation?

Thanks again for all the feedback, it's a really nice subject, if only a bit obscure at the beginning.

On a funny note, I was walking by graz today and with 3 roofs and some moulded towers you are pretty much able to reproduce the whole skyline of the city.
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Yxoc
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Re: Theoretical woodworking

Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:14 am

Sebastian,
I can confirm that Chris' work on the hopper (and related roof work) is as comprehensive as you will find anywhere in English. Whilst random pages, taken out of context, may seem complicated - if you read them through in sequence you will find a very good building blocks approach to the subject. Please don't dismiss them out of hand if you are seriously interested in pursuing this kind of knowledge - you will do yourself a disservice.

Note that 3D drawing tools such as Sketchup are a very convenient space in which to do your 2D drawings, you are merely using a limited subset of the whole functionality of the program - it saves on a whole lot of workshop floor space and door skin panels!

Regards
Derek
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Re: Theoretical woodworking

Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:04 am

Hi Sebastian,

Chris also dove into this drawing technique awhile back on his blog: http://thecarpentryway.blogspot.com/201 ... -spot.html

And I'll second Derek's sentiments on the value of the TAJCD series as well.
Sebastian Gonzalez
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Re: Theoretical woodworking

Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:19 am

Thanks Derek,

I reckon I should start by volume 2 then, no? I will give me a week to make the tenon and mortice by myself and then get the book.

Is there anyone doing things in paper still? I totally understand the convenience of sketch up, but 10 years of simulations have me with allergy to computers. There is also the materiality of the process, I don't remember if it was in the Craftsman of Sennet or something like that, but the guy explained how the materiality of the paper helped the creativity of the designer by creating more constrains...

Thanks for the link Matt, I was going chronologically on Chris' posts and had not found this series yet. I took a fast look and in the second post he shows the rotation of the triangles I was asking about. That's precisely the thing I was looking for. Now if you pardon me, I got some reading to do :)
Sebastian Gonzalez
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Re: Theoretical woodworking

Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:23 pm

Francois, do you have perhaps a "cardboard" model? This is the second book I see mentioning them. I thought the first time it meant to make a model of the timber piece, but from the explanation of the book I get that what you model is the projection mechanism, not the timber itself. Or am I missing something? I will try it tomorrow on cardboard since I cannot "see" it right now. Do you think you could scan the table of contents of the book? Sorry for making so many questions.

I didn't manage to read Chris series today, but I did some cutting some pieces of wood as you recommended and makes all the things a bit clearer. You can rotate things way easier in real space than in your mind, at least in mine.

I copied the bevels from my template. My bevel gauge is in the other flat already.
L1080818.jpg
Got some liiines (which reminded me of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2_d5Fuspok)
L1080821.jpg
Then cut, going a bit out of the line in one of the corners
L1080825.jpg
and a trial fit
L1080827.jpg
Then I ripped one of the pieces to have something resembling boards and not beams, and played with the angles a bit. At the third cut I managed to cut then a butt joint but didn't take a pictures of that.

Thanks a lot for all the input, things are starting to make sense now.
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Re: Theoretical woodworking

Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:06 am

Sebastion,
Volume One deals with mathematics - Pythagorus and trigonometry including law of Sines and Cosines. It sounds like you have a solid mathematics background so you would get by without it. Volume two covers the hopper whilst subsequent volumes move on to incrementally more involved projects (incremental in conceptual difficulty, there is a bit of work to do to physically complete the model).

I am sure people still do things in paper and if that is your preference then there is no reason not to - the drawing elements of Chris' volumes are explained as though you are drawing on paper. Jack Ervin was active with the carpentry projects until just recently and he was doing all of his drawing on paper/door skin.

Regards
Derek
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Chris Hall
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Re: Theoretical woodworking

Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:06 am

Yes the drawing work shown throughout TAJCD is 2D 'flat plane' work, and can be undertaken with the standard drawing tools on whatever flat surface you might wish to use.

2D drawing in full scale remains a valuable carpentry technique.

I employ 3D drawings in these texts only as a convenient means of explaining certain issues that are difficult to visualize otherwise, or are most succinctly explained by using a 3D sketch. People have varying abilities to visualize complex 3D shapes in their minds, so a picture can be very helpful, as can an actual model in front of you.

When making the Mazerolle sawhorse some years back, I had no access to view a completed piece (as I would were I able to attend classes in his school 150 years ago), and the perspective sketch in the book only showed one corner of the sawhorse. 3D helped me greatly in regards to seeing what was going on with the other sides, and to confirm that the 2D developments actually worked.
Sebastian Gonzalez
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Re: Theoretical woodworking

Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:30 pm

So, I finally managed to read "X mark the spot", and it was precisely the process-like description I was looking for, it made everything perfectly clear. I guess the answer to my first post could really be summarised as "go and read that NOW". I'm gonna try to make the drawing of the piece b, before reading the final post.

Chris, you leave the "thin lines" on your drawings there, are those the same lines one can see in the "nice" (aka diabolic) french drawings? Did you ever made the animation for rotating the triangles you talked about? I could do one quite fast in Mathematica (a maths software with nice 3D/2D plots) in case you haven't yet.

I kept on playing with my bevels today, ripping more and trying the but joint and half a finger joint.
L1080835.jpg
It took me a bit of trial and error but the third cut was a charm when I realised the butt joint needed to be 90degree to the miter, so it could fit the other piece:
L1080836.jpg
That was yesterday. Today I forgot what I learnt yesterday and spend some time trying to find the face bevel for the other piece so that I could have a finger joint. Again, three cuts later I realised the other piece was also a butt joint, but on the other piece, so the bevel was the same just in the other direction. I love reciprocal relations.
L1080837.jpg
When I looked from there it was the aha moment. With that it was almost done
L1080839.jpg
Please don't look at the horrible sawing, I'm having a lot of problems trying to hold these small fat pieces. I still need to find out the edge bevel though, I think tomorrow will go back to the drawing before sawing more.
L1080840.jpg
I really like the way the grain changes direction by the way.

Last thing, is that I have found very useful to literally break the problem in smaller pieces, compound angle lego so to say. You can try different arrangements on the fly.

Thanks again for all the help.
Gonzalo
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Re: Theoretical woodworking

Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:24 pm

Hola buenas tardes

Este es un libro antiguo me parece que es muy bueno espero te sea de ayuda bye. . .

http://www.aq.upm.es/biblioteca/fondoan ... iraIII.htm
Sebastian Gonzalez
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Re: Theoretical woodworking

Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:21 pm

thanks for the book Gonzalo, really nice drawings. Will look for the text to learn the spanish vocabulary.

From what I've seen, Spaniards had a very acceptable woodworking standard in colony times, ie 1600s, the most beautiful examples I know of are in Lima and around Quito, the latter a totally recommended trip location. Somehow all that was lost with modernity, must be our lazy genes and too much vino.

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