Hip Roof Model 2 - are you ready?

An on-going study exploring traditional carpentry layout techniques.
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Chris Hall
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Re: Hip Roof Model 2 - are you ready?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:02 pm

durbien wrote:If you're still drawing with surface meshes (like SU) I think that's a mistake. I think Rhino will really be great should you decide to use it for your metalwork, with all of its organic surfaces. It should also work well with curved members/logs. However for rectilinear objects like TAJCD projects I think a solid modeler like SolidWorks or Inventor might've been easier to learn - albeit at a hefty price.
I looked at Solidworks, and it looks great however the steep price tag, along with the requirement to purchase yearly upgrades, also at a steep price, didn't work for me. Ditto for Autodesk Inventor. Those programs make more sense for an engineering design firms and the like and for people who do nothing but CAD full time, at least so it seems to me.

I've been learning slowly how different Rhino is from SU, and nothing like wading in and making every mistake I can. At first it was a triumph to construct a rectangular box! Now I feel like I am beginning to have the vaguest idea how to use a few tools. So much to learn yet. Love it! Hate it!

The reason I want to get into Rhino is specifically for modeling curved surfaces, something Sketchup remains poor at and will always be poor at, as it is not NURBS based. Sketchup is also poor at holding high precision I have found. Also, with Rhino I can export files which can be coded more directly for CAM work, which is something I have subcontracted on occasion at a facility in upstate New York. When I have used Sketchup files in the past, I've had to pay them hourly to convert my drawings - meaning copy my drawings - into a format which can be directly programmed.

I'll keep Sketchup around though. It works well for conceptual modeling, quick 'sketches', and all, and that does encompass 95% of the drawing I do.
durbien
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Re: Hip Roof Model 2 - are you ready?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:42 pm

For those requirements, Rhino/RhinoCAM is ideal. There is a reason why it is popular with jewelers and shipbuilders. It's good for 3D printing too, should you decide to do that for prototyping.

Have you heard of Dietrichs? I hear it's the standard for timberframing, but I've never worked with it. Again, also supposedly very expensive and not for surfaces, but perhaps useful for TAJCD.
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Chris Hall
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Re: Hip Roof Model 2 - are you ready?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:44 pm

Yes, i've seen Deitrichs, years ago. It's not a solution for me however, but suits more the typical timber frame designer, using fairly standardized connections. I always design joinery for the application, down to every dimension - in other words, many of the connections are totally custom. Now, while Deitrichs offers the ability to customize joinery, the remainder of the pre-set connection details, etc., are of little use to me. I don't see what special advantages it offers over SU frankly, though I may be missing something. And the cost does not appeal.

The roof study modules are heading towards curved roof work, so it's not all about the rectilinear. TAJCD is still in early stages in that regard. Walk before you can run, that sort of thing.... I can imagine the ability to detail curved roof planes will be very cool when I get into it with Rhino.
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Re: Hip Roof Model 2 - are you ready?

Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:53 pm

Updating from yesterday's discussion...

I feel like I have developed a strategy with Rhino which works well for what I am trying to achieve at the moment. As usual, mistakes are the best teacher.

Going over the drawing this morning I found a bunch of tiny misalignments between parts. These had resulted entirely from my approach to doing the drawing.

In SU, I generally spend all my drawing time with the camera set to perspective. I go to parallel projection and the standard orthographic views when I wish to export jpegs of plan and elevation views.

In Rhino, perspective is one of the view ports available. So, coming from SU, I gravitated towards doing my drawing work in that view, as it was what I had become comfortable doing. I've discovered it is better, however, to instead do the drawing work primarily in the other standard views (top, front, and right), occasionally popping back over to perspective just to check everything is going as one would like. I discovered that the accuracy can be a lot higher in the orthographic views than in perspective, for one thing. And these views, though the object is completely wire frame, allow me to carefully align everything.

Today I redrew the entire sketch, making corrections and getting more comfortable with this approach. I'm feeling like it is working well for me. This approach, of working in the plan and elevation views instead of perspective, if you think about it, is the normal approach one would take if working with old school drafting techniques on paper. Concept sketches can be realized fairly quickly in SU, while precision plan and elevation drawing in Rhino, which of course generate the 3D model along the way, seems a good sort of workflow. And manipulating at plan and elevation is better for the 'visualization' part of the equation, although of course you can check outcomes in a perspective view anytime.

And I will say that the 'wire cut' tool is my new friend in Rhino when working with rectilinear objects, while in SU I have been largely relying upon a push/pull approach to create shapes. You can push/pull in Rhino 5 as well, which is cool, however I'm realizing it is not always the convenient way to go. In Rhino, I've been making generic shapes in one view, then switching to another and using the wire cut tool to carve out what I need, joinery and all.

I'm demoing the new Rhino 5 for Mac, and so far so good. While I only feel comfortable with a tiny percentage of the tools available in Rhino, I now feel like I have made at least the first ascent of the mountain, and can take a breath on some flat ground for a moment. I'm thinking I will pay for the software when the demo period is over. I think it works well for rectilinear objects.

I thought I'd post this up in case anyone else out there is contemplating a shift to Rhino or a similar type of command-based software. Might be helpful to someone, who knows?

Anyway, nearly done now, just need to add the tenons to the jack rafters, along with their corresponding mortises on the hip rafter:
Steep Hip Model.jpg
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Steep Hip 2.jpg
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Chris Pyle
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Re: Hip Roof Model 2 - are you ready?

Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:36 pm

Looks like you are picking it up at lightning speed. I just downloaded it and I'm beginning to mess around with it. I'm going to watch a couple demos in the morning before work and attempt some of the exercises.
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Re: Hip Roof Model 2 - are you ready?

Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:34 am

Well, with my elbow being in slow recovery mode, i need to keep myself away from the shop and thus I'm putting in a few hours learning Rhino.

Yesterday was not without its frustrations trying to get the jack rafter tenons done, but in the end, the model was completed. I think I will start drawing hip roof model #3 next, to try and cement some of the modest gains I have made.
Steep Hip Complete.jpg
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Rhino can export to an .skp (Sketchup) file format, by the way, and it works fine when you open it up in SU, however nothing is exported as a Sketchup component, which means the model is a pile of planes which you'd have to stitch back together as components to make the file workable.
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Chris Pyle
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Re: Hip Roof Model 2 - are you ready?

Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:06 am

Well done Chris, I'm attempting to follow your lead by using the top, front, side projections and only occasionally reverting back to perspective view. I just created my keyboard shortcuts for the Top,Front,Right and Prospective views so I can quickly bounce between them.

Once I actually find the tools I like most, I'll do the same for those. That'll help speed up this very slow migration.


Subjectively, I like the look of the Rhino models more. :)
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Chris Hall
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Re: Hip Roof Model 2 - are you ready?

Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:33 pm

Given that you're a computer guy Chris, i imagine it won't be long before you leave me far behind. Glad those workflow ideas I shared seem to have been helpful. Good idea on creating those keyboard shortcuts - I'll look into that soon enough.

I am hoping I can render these models in the appropriate wood species at some point. I've started in on hip model #3, and it is generally going a little faster than before.
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Chris Pyle
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Re: Hip Roof Model 2 - are you ready?

Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:30 pm

Chris Hall wrote:Given that you're a computer guy Chris, i imagine it won't be long before you leave me far behind. Glad those workflow ideas I shared seem to have been helpful. Good idea on creating those keyboard shortcuts - I'll look into that soon enough.

I am hoping I can render these models in the appropriate wood species at some point. I've started in on hip model #3, and it is generally going a little faster than before.
Ha ha, I may be a "computer guy" but I never got close to you in Sketchup. Not to over-inflate your ego but you are very far ahead of me.

As an aside, this should help set-up your defaults:

http://wiki.mcneel.com/rhino/mac/keyboardshortcuts

The default shortcuts are "read only" so you have to click that little plus sign in the bottom left corner to create a new set of keyboard shortcuts. You can designate your whole palette of tools in quick keys and that should save you a fair amount of time from the typical mouse clicking required. You can search for the command macros in the bottom window. Fairly straightforward process.
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Re: Hip Roof Model 2 - are you ready?

Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:50 am

Progress report:

Three Keta pieces dimensioned and cut to length. Stub post stock dimensioned. Main post dimensioned. First bunch of rafter stock cut out but needs a couple of passes through the thicknesser (ran out of time today).
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