Dai making and setting up for competition level shavings

shawn M
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Dai making and setting up for competition level shavings

Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:57 pm

This is my first topic to start on the forums. Ive been lurking quite a bit and have enjoyed a lot of the posts. I look forward to posting more and getting to know you guys.

Ive been working with a company called takumi for the past 3 1/2 years and have put a lot of miles on my kanna.
I am always fine tuning and lately have been thinking about all those really really thin shavings those guys in Japan are doing.
I have a friend working as a carpenter in Japan and we were just talking about how these guys at kezeroukai are getting 2.5 micron shavings.
A few things I found out were
1- They are using laminated dai.
2- The bed of the dai has a layer of epoxy which conforms to the back of the kanna perfectly. I just tried this on some of my loose dai and it worked great! no more annoying paper shims. I cant imagine getting a better fit.


Anyway just wondering if anyone has tried to go competition thin and has anything to add regarding little tips and tricks?

I know a lot has to do with sharpening. Ive been speaking with So-san about getting a really nice stone that could get me to super thin levels.
Last edited by shawn M on Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
durbien
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Re: Dai making and setting up for competition level shavings

Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:35 am

Is this like epoxy for bedding rifle barrels? I seem to remember someone else (Krenov?) recommending using bedding compounds to ensure 100% contact, but somehow didn't make the leap to Japanese kanna setup. Come to think of it, the traditional ink/graphite transfer fitting is very similar to the luthier's method of "chalk" fitting braces and cauls to the interior of violin plates and such..
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Brian
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Re: Dai making and setting up for competition level shavings

Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:30 pm

I think you'll be very happy with the stone that So-san chooses for you. I had him choose one for me that is just barely short of competition level and it is really incredible. I wanted something for daily use for fine carbon steel tools and this is it. I curious and hopefully you dont mind sharing....razor stone?

I am not sure I am capable of revealing any secrets at this level of my study, but I am curious as to the choices you've made in Kanna and dai, are you biasing this toward competition stuff or are you searching for super thin shavings for stuff that you want to use all the time for your carpentry/woodwork.
John Whitley
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Re: Dai making and setting up for competition level shavings

Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:10 pm

Interesting re: the epoxy bedding. The bedding benefit seems obvious: a moldable material can create a close fit to the blade. I wonder how that interacts with dai movement.

I'm also curious about the rationale and details around #3, which seems vaguely similar to dai with ebony/etc. inserts at the mouth wear-zone. Questions in my mind: Is this treatment intended solely to create an accurate front-edge of the mouth, or are there wear and/or other longevity benefits? How easy is it to tune up? E.g. is this a short-term thing appropriate only for competition or occasional extra-extra fine planing work, or are there benefits to "normal" planing workflows?
patoriku
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Re: Dai making and setting up for competition level shavings

Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:08 pm

Hey Shawn!

Maybe it's just me, but using laminated dais and epoxy seems a bit like cheating.
shawn M
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Re: Dai making and setting up for competition level shavings

Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:14 pm

durbien wrote:Is this like epoxy for bedding rifle barrels? I seem to remember someone else (Krenov?) recommending using bedding compounds to ensure 100% contact, but somehow didn't make the leap to Japanese kanna setup. Come to think of it, the traditional ink/graphite transfer fitting is very similar to the luthier's method of "chalk" fitting braces and cauls to the interior of violin plates and such..

very interesting!! I looked up epoxy for bedding rifle barrels and that stuff seems like it should work really great. I just used JB weld and so far its done the fix for the kannas I had loose. My friend that led me onto this uses a japanese brand so I will try to get that information.

I had no idea Krenov recommended something similar. very interesting indeed.
shawn M
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Re: Dai making and setting up for competition level shavings

Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:29 pm

Brian wrote:I think you'll be very happy with the stone that So-san chooses for you. I had him choose one for me that is just barely short of competition level and it is really incredible. I wanted something for daily use for fine carbon steel tools and this is it. I curious and hopefully you dont mind sharing....razor stone?

I am not sure I am capable of revealing any secrets at this level of my study, but I am curious as to the choices you've made in Kanna and dai, are you biasing this toward competition stuff or are you searching for super thin shavings for stuff that you want to use all the time for your carpentry/woodwork.

Hey Brian,

The stones that So-san were recommending were the razor stones. Someone is in line before me to get the first pick of the ones he has available so we will see. It looks like some of the razor fanatics got to some of the better ones already

To get super thin shavings/ competition level requires sooooo much detail in setup,sharpening etc.....There are so many little nuances about the kanna it seems like its really a lifetime of just always refining. This all takes time but like anything over time you get better and better and gradually faster. I figure why not aim to be able to pull competition level shavings on your worst day haha. For daily woodwork though you dont need to pull such thin shavings. But being able too and having the ability to setup everything up to such a high level will play out in all of ones work in my opinion.
shawn M
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Re: Dai making and setting up for competition level shavings

Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:35 pm

patoriku wrote:Hey Shawn!

Maybe it's just me, but using laminated dais and epoxy seems a bit like cheating.


Hey Patoriku,

Believe me, I thougt the same thing as I epoxied my dai to get that perfect fit. It felt like cheating because it was so easy. Its all in the mind though. Were all cheating compared to Daiku a hundred years ago haha.
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Brian
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Re: Dai making and setting up for competition level shavings

Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:06 pm

shawn M wrote:
Brian wrote:I think you'll be very happy with the stone that So-san chooses for you. I had him choose one for me that is just barely short of competition level and it is really incredible. I wanted something for daily use for fine carbon steel tools and this is it. I curious and hopefully you dont mind sharing....razor stone?

I am not sure I am capable of revealing any secrets at this level of my study, but I am curious as to the choices you've made in Kanna and dai, are you biasing this toward competition stuff or are you searching for super thin shavings for stuff that you want to use all the time for your carpentry/woodwork.

Hey Brian,

The stones that So-san were recommending were the razor stones. Someone is in line before me to get the first pick of the ones he has available so we will see. It looks like some of the razor fanatics got to some of the better ones already

To get super thin shavings/ competition level requires sooooo much detail in setup,sharpening etc.....There are so many little nuances about the kanna it seems like its really a lifetime of just always refining. This all takes time but like anything over time you get better and better and gradually faster. I figure why not aim to be able to pull competition level shavings on your worst day haha. For daily woodwork though you dont need to pull such thin shavings. But being able too and having the ability to setup everything up to such a high level will play out in all of ones work in my opinion.
I like your thought process, makes good sense to me. I really appreciate this thread as I find this sort of thing very interesting. I can only speak to the stones, as currently thats where my experience has been. I opted for a Nakayama asagi, which technically you can use for razors, its like 30,000 grit, so not as fine as the stones you're looking at. I dont need to come anywhere near 2 micron, something like 10-20 microns would be fine for me. My goals, for my new plane, are to get full width thin shavings (70mm). I can get good shavings out of my western planes, like .001", no problem.

Have you read Chris' blog posts on setting up Kanna?
shawn M
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Re: Dai making and setting up for competition level shavings

Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:34 pm

Hey Brian,
I have read Chris Halls post on setting up the Kanna. Very well put together!

That Nakayama Asagi sounds very nice. It would actually do well for my needs.

"My goals, for my new plane, are to get full width thin shavings (70mm)" great goal! with proper setup and doing your best at each step you will get it!

I am curious what kanna did you buy recently?

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