Mortise chisels

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Brian
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Mortise chisels

Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:19 am

So, wondering if I can fish for info a bit; what mortise chisels are you guys using, what angle is the cutting edge and what wood do you chop most often ?
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Brian
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Re: Mortise chisels

Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:13 am

So, since this has not been replied to I'll share my investigations and observations;

- I do not 'lever out' waste. Levering out waste would be a typical requirement of western mortise chisels and it is a technique which is shared amongst those who use them. It's not advised for Japanese chisels as it is incredibly stressful on the hard steel.

- I currently have Koyamaichi white steel #2 mortise chisels. They arrived from the maker with about a 45 degree bevel, practically bouncing out of the cut, but it did actually cut. I changed the bevel to 35 degrees which cuts beautifully but would chip the end of the chisel pretty rapidly. This is not unexpected but being 'anal' as it were this is unacceptable. I slowly raised the bevel to around 40 degrees and the chipping stopped, but again the chisel is much harder to cut with.

- I ordered a Yamahiro white steel #1 chisel with the expectation that it will be able to survive in hardwoods with a 35 degree bevel.....we'll find out in a few weeks. My current project will (hopefully) be finished by then, or at least the cutout will be, and so these chisels will have it easy at first. My next project is in cherry....which is pretty easy to work.
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Re: Mortise chisels

Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:10 pm

OK, since the levering is out, can you share your mortising technique? Or if this is shown elsewhere, point me to it?

There are several methods to chop mortises with Western "pig stickers" shown on the web - all include levering at some point.

At the moment I use a drill to hog out my mortises, but I was a bit disheartened to read on your other thread that your Ouchi mortise chisels didn't fare well..
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Brian
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Re: Mortise chisels

Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:34 pm

Koyamaichi mortise chisels? They would probably do fine in softer wood but white ash is asking a lot of them.

I drill one hole on the side of the mortise. Then start chopping with the bevel turned away from the hole starting about 1/8" from the edge of the hole. I chop riding the bevel. Then take another bite about another 1/8 from the cut and move along until I am near the edge of my marking. The waste is easy to remove at this point as it is totally sheared. I turn the chisel around a chop into the ramp taking 1/8" bites. Rinse and repeat until you reach the desired depth.
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Yxoc
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Re: Mortise chisels

Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:03 pm

Brian,
I missed this post earlier.

I use the Narex mortice chisels that Leevalley sell. Obviously not very interesting from a Japanese tool perspective but they have a primary bevel of about 20deg upon which you put a micro-bevel of ~40deg. This does allow the tip to penetrate quite well. I have used them in softwoods and some Australian hardwoods and I have to say they are ridiculously good value for money and hold up quite well. Also easy to sharpen.

I use the Paul Sellers technique which you can see on youtube. It works quite well and there is actually not much levering required.

I was always interested to see how Japanese chisels would go, given that they need a blunt bevel along the whole length.

Of course this primarily pertains to furniture work where the mortice chisel sets the dimension of the mortice. In the carpentry work the mortices are all sorts of weird shapes and I use different techniques in that case.

Derek
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Brian
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Re: Mortise chisels

Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:25 pm

Thanks Derek!

I'm probably a bit of an oddity but I set the mortises by dimension, not by the chisel. I know this is not typical for cabinetmaking but I prefer it. It allows me some room to pare.
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Chris Hall
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Re: Mortise chisels

Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:59 am

Brian wrote:I'm probably a bit of an oddity but I set the mortises by dimension, not by the chisel. I know this is not typical for cabinetmaking but I prefer it. It allows me some room to pare.
I agree with this approach. Also, if the mortise is to be the same width as the chisel, it tends to mean the chisel is always a tight fit in the hole, which makes the work more tiring.

Mortises are preferably sized to the appropriate dimension to the stock, not to available chisels. If you size to available chisels, and mortises are always a standard 1/3 width, then you are going to tend to make your stock sizes also a narrower range of sizes - i.e., 3x chisel width. Too limiting from a design perspective as far as I am concerned.
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Brian
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Re: Mortise chisels

Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:34 am

My inexperience amongst makers may show right now, but after receiving and setting up the Yamahiro mortise chisels I'm shocked by how much work was involved.

Oddly enough the handle/hoop were easy as could be, literally a few raps to set the hoop with the hooper setter tool then peening over the handle. The handles were super precise.

The blades however....
both had very concave backs, which can be a plus if the need some rough work first.
The angle of the 12mm was right on, I flattened the bevel and that was all, but the 6mm was practically set at 45 degrees..I ground 10 degrees out of it.

However, this is the odd one for these, the sides were terrible and a ton of work to get right. The 12mm had a huge chunk of wrought knocking one side well above 90, it was bad enough that I had to file it back first. The opposing side has a convexity to it.

The 6mm were very far from straight, I worked them flat parallel and 90 to the blade...it was laborious to say the least. These were also tapered toward the edge rather than away from it....they still require more work in that area.

I referenced my Koyamaichis, they were ground on the sides prior to applying a finish. The taper away from the edge which is fine.

On the plus side they work nicely. I got a little chipping in one mortise, but after working it out the blade has been very strong.

The end result is nice, but wow there was a lot of effort involved and I'm not sure if I want to put even more to make the sides really pristine.
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Chris Hall
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Re: Mortise chisels

Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:24 pm

I didn't have that experience when setting up the one Yamahiro chisel I have. Sounds like the smith is getting old and QC is slipping a bit. Sounds a lot like a Yokoyama plane blade frankly, and if I hadn't found my Yamahiro straightforward to set up I may have been tempted to say that perhaps the smith has a philosophy, like Yokoyama, of producing blades which are, um, rough around the edges and yet cut well.

Hopefully the edge performance will offset the set-up aggravation. Let the seller know your experience.
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Brian
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Re: Mortise chisels

Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:41 pm

Thanks Chris, I was debating wether or not to bring it up to him. I mentioned before he sent them that I was looking for the filed hoops, so between that and this I'm overall ho-hum on Yamahiro. The ones you setup some time ago looked better in my opinion.

On top of those issues previously mentioned both chisels have minor delamination in non-critical areas...

Cutting performance is excellent thus far and the chisels are stout as can be.

I have a variable speed belt grinder at my father's shop, it may be time to put it to use here. Aiming for a very even looking finish without another few hours at the diamond plates.

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