鑿 Nomi Wiki: Comments/Questions

Mathieu
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Re: 鑿 Nomi Types and Terms

Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:43 pm

Chris Hall wrote: If the chisel head form does not have beveled arrises, but a form with a non-chamfered upper section is thought to look like a Meiji period hairstyle, a-ge-maki uchi oi-ire, 総角打ち追入れ. Here's an example:
Are these also referred to as kaku-uchi nomi ?
...
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Brian
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Re: 鑿 Nomi Types and Terms

Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:51 pm

Chris,

Maybe you can comment on this, I thought it is interesting that So Yamashita refers to Mukoumachi-Nomi as a chisel for working the Kanna dai side grooves, where many others simply refer to this as mortise chisels.
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Chris Hall
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Re: 鑿 Nomi Types and Terms

Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:57 pm

Mathieu wrote:
Chris Hall wrote: If the chisel head form does not have beveled arrises, but a form with a non-chamfered upper section is thought to look like a Meiji period hairstyle, a-ge-maki uchi oi-ire, 総角打ち追入れ. Here's an example:
Are these also referred to as kaku-uchi nomi ?
[EDIT: disregard the piece below - I had drawn an erroneous conclusion. The Wiki has been corrected.]

Like kaku men tori and men tori, the term kaku-uchi is an abbreviation for age-maki uchi. How so? Look at the kanji:

A-ge-maki uchi: 総角打ち

Kaku-uchi: 角打ち

The tricky bit is the character '', which is read quite a few different ways: kaku, tsuno, kado, and sumi. In 角打ち the character '' is read 'kaku' which is the usual reading for that character.

In '総角打ち' the character '' takes a special reading altogether, as 'maki'. The two characters 総角 can also be read sōkaku, and, as chongā, a slangy term for 'bachelor'.

I think because a lot of people are not going to know how to read '総角打ち' properly, the abbreviation has become more commonplace, as everyone would know how to read 角打ち as kaku-uchi.

Japanese is a tricky language.
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Chris Hall
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Re: 鑿 Nomi Types and Terms

Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:59 pm

Brian wrote:Chris,

Maybe you can comment on this, I thought it is interesting that So Yamashita refers to Mukoumachi-Nomi as a chisel for working the Kanna dai side grooves, where many others simply refer to this as mortise chisels.

I'll get to mukō-machi nomi soon enough, along with other chisels. Thanks for asking.
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Chris Pyle
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Re: 鑿 Nomi Types and Terms

Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:31 pm

Will this new section have the description of your new exciting chisels? And should we be replying directly in this thread? Please delete this post if this is going to be a sticky.
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Chris Hall
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Re: 鑿 Nomi Types and Terms

Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:46 pm

Well, it was already set as a sticky and yet replies were allowed. i need to check the settings.

And no, I won't be talking about those new chisels here. This is meant to be more of a 'wiki' section - in fact, I'll rename it as such.
durbien
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Re: 鑿 Nomi Wiki

Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:43 pm

So.. Should we be replying with questions?

Can you address whether shinogi oi ire nomi are "dovetail chisels" as they have been called in the West? My earlier teacher hated that name, and thought they were completely unsuitable for that task. Were dovetails for casework traditionally chopped and pared with these tools?
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Chris Hall
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Re: 鑿 Nomi Wiki: Comments/Questions

Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:22 am

Can you address whether shinogi oi ire nomi are "dovetail chisels" as they have been called in the West? My earlier teacher hated that name, and thought they were completely unsuitable for that task. Were dovetails for casework traditionally chopped and pared with these tools?
Excellent question. I would differ from your earlier teacher's assessment that the shinogi form chisels are "completely unsuitable" and prefer to say they are not perfectly suited for the task out of the box, so to speak.

Dovetails may be chopped and pared with either shinogi-form or umeki-form chisels. When you receive a shinogi-form chisel from a blacksmith, the cross section looks like this:
chisel cross section for dovetail.jpg
chisel cross section for dovetail.jpg (23.64 KiB) Viewed 5534 times
Note the part marked with the arrow, termed koba '小端'. You can see that the intersection between the side of the chisel and the ura is not a crisp corner. A chisel side is made this way because (and just like the tip of the chisel), if the side arris were sharp after forming to shape, then the process of tempering would disproportionately affect the sharp arris, making it too hot. This would later result in a chisel which has a crumbly side edge. That arris needs to therefore be left blunt for the heat treatment phase. When chisels are formed, the tip is left blunt for the same reason, then shaped to a sharp point after the heat treatment process is complete.

After heat treatment, the smith does not similarly grind the side of the chisel to a sharp point for the reason that, in most usages, it makes for a tool which will readily slice the side of your finger open - the same side of your finger you may use to guide the tool when paring. For most usages, you wouldn't want the side arris to be razor sharp. However, if you want to cut dovetails or similarly acute inner corners, then grinding the edge of the tool into a sharp arris would be the thing to do:
chisel cross-section change.jpg
chisel cross-section change.jpg (38.37 KiB) Viewed 5534 times
(images from Mandara-ya's site).

Generally speaking, if you had a set of 10 chisels, you would only need to modify a couple of them with sharp arrises specifically for the task of cutting dovetails.

This is the thing with Japanese tools that makes them a harder sell in the west. The come a bit as a kit, and the user can modify them to suit requirements. It's normal for Japanese carpenters and woodworkers to make their own plane dai and customize their tools in various ways, whereas in the west there is far more an expectation that the tool come out of the box ready to go. I think a large part of this seeming difference in expectation arises from the fact that the chisel buyer in Japan is generally a profession who works full time with the tool, while in the west the typical buyer is a hobby woodworker, new to things, and reading magazines which always tout some new and easier way to do stuff.

If you wanted to order chisels with the arris formed to a sharp corner, you could do so, however this option is generally only available by working with a retailer who is able to communicate your particular requirements to the smith.
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Brian
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Re: 鑿 Nomi Wiki: Comments/Questions

Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:30 am

How do you feel about Ichou-gata for this task?
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Chris Hall
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Re: 鑿 Nomi Wiki: Comments/Questions

Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:10 am

How do you feel about Ichou-gata for this task?
That's another name, as far as I am concerned, for bachi-nomi, バチ鑿. Will be putting an entry for those soon. A good choice as well for dovetails, especially when cutting the recesses on blind dovetail mortises.

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