Zimmermann FZ-5

[Chris Hall]

Currently drooling over this machine, 1971 vintage pattern maker's milling machine with dual heads:

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The rear head allows for high speed cutting, up to 14,000 rpm.

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The DRO is mounted with some plywood, which is a little cheesy, but the rest of the machine is very nicely made.

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Scraped ways and planed machine table - marks of quality:

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I can think of lots of things I could do with this machine, and I think it would work fine for metal too, up to a certain size. It's about $6700, so it is far from a casual purchase. It's been on the market a while.

Zimmermann made a series of pattern maker milling machines, of which the FZ-5V is the largest. Most of them do not come with the dual head however. they're still in business making woodworking machines, however the current version of the above machine is fully CNC now.

[Jack_Ervin.]

Chris,
If I was back in toolmaking/diesinking and was outfitting a shop with manual machines, at that price, I would jump on that in a heartbeat. The way scraping looks very fresh and probably from original manufacture. Machines that had extensive use would show quiet a bit of wear there with exposed ways if it had been subject to metal cutting. That looks to be the same quality as what Deckel put into their machines, of which I ran a Deckel GK12 pantograph copy machine for 20 years. That machine was approx. $20,000 in 1980. It looks to be on the size of a Bridgeport Series I mill which has plenty of muscle. This machine looks to be quiet a bit more solid built than a Bridgeport and of typical German Quality. The high speed head on this machine is very desirable. The DRO has XYZ of which the Z axis doesn't have a cable attached. I would be asking information about the DRO if it is a retro fit or was installed by Zimmermann. I found Z axis on the knee very useful and productive. The integral rotating feature would be a plus for what I would be doing. I would guess that machine would have cost above $25,000 in 1980. Don't have a guess for 1971.
Jack

[Jack_Ervin.]

Chris,
By the way the patterns that I made on a Bridgeport style machine to be used on the Deckel were aluminum and at 2:1. They were 2"X4"X8" approx.
Jack

[Chris Hall]

There are so many sweet, hulking, well made machines in Germany available to buy and the prices are really good. There are only two hitches: 380v. 50Hz motors, meaning I would need to also purchase a step-up transformer and device to move to 60Hz, and the shipping/crating aspect, which adds a fair amount of money to the proposition. There's also the issue of the amount of space these machines take up - I'd have to rent more shop space.

With the need for the transformer, I tend to think it would make sense to buy more than one machine, kind of amortize the transformer expense, so to speak. There are several other types of Zimmermann machine that are equally drool-worthy

Here's another FZ-5 for sale, a 1980 model no high speed head, but huge vertical clearance, DRO tacked on top of the control panel, and only 3300 euros - that's just $4082:

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That's a screaming deal as far as I am concerned.

[Chris Hall]

Chris,
If I was back in toolmaking/diesinking and was outfitting a shop with manual machines, at that price, I would jump on that in a heartbeat. The way scraping looks very fresh and probably from original manufacture. Machines that had extensive use would show quiet a bit of wear there with exposed ways if it had been subject to metal cutting. That looks to be the same quality as what Deckel put into their machines, of which I ran a Deckel GK12 pantograph copy machine for 20 years. That machine was approx. $20,000 in 1980. It looks to be on the size of a Bridgeport Series I mill which has plenty of muscle. This machine looks to be quite a bit more solid built than a Bridgeport and of typical German Quality. The high speed head on this machine is very desirable. The DRO has XYZ of which the Z axis doesn't have a cable attached. I would be asking information about the DRO if it is a retro fit or was installed by Zimmermann. I found Z axis on the knee very useful and productive. The integral rotating feature would be a plus for what I would be doing. I would guess that machine would have cost above $25,000 in 1980. Don't have a guess for 1971.
Jack

I am a bit familiar with Deckel machines. There are a few for sale on Ebay, and they have some wild accessories. I agree that the FZ-5 looks to be in excellent shape. I've noticed most older German machines are in similarly decent shape. Run by skilled tradespeople for years and looked after with proper maintenance.

I'm sure the DRO was added by the previous owner. Zimmermann would never set things up like that.

One appeal of a milling machine for me is that it replaces my crappy drill press.

[Jack_Ervin.]

There are so many sweet, hulking, well made machines in Germany available to buy and the prices are really good. There are only two hitches: 380v. 50Hz motors, meaning I would need to also purchase a step-up transformer and device to move to 60Hz, and the shipping/crating aspect, which adds a fair amount of money to the proposition. There's also the issue of the amount of space these machines take up - I'd have to rent more shop space.

With the need for the transformer, I tend to think it would make sense to buy more than one machine, kind of amortize the transformer expense, so to speak. There are several other types of Zimmermann machine that are equally drool-worthy

Power requirements can become problematic. Our shop was set up with 220v and 460v bus bars to meet machine requirements. That could be a deal breaker for just one machine. The precision hole making tho is far superior to what any drill press can deliver and falls in line with the precision that you execute on your pieces.
Jack

[Jack_Ervin.]

As far as drill press work is concerned, the quill on the first machine would function nicely as the second machine would be of limited functionality for manual drill press work but excel in positioning the way I see it.

[Chris Hall]

Power requirements can become problematic. Our shop was set up with 220v and 460v bus bars to meet machine requirements. That could be a deal breaker for just one machine. The precision hole making tho is far superior to what any drill press can deliver and falls in line with the precision that you execute on your pieces.
Jack

Yeah, that's why it makes more sense to me to obtain 2 or 3 machines, at least, and have them running on the same 380v, 50Hz power, as it makes the purchase of a larger step-up transformer a more reasonable proposition when it is shared between machines. If it were just one machine, I would look seriously at whether the motors and related circuits could be swapped, though I am under no illusion that such a course would be any cheaper than the transformer.

I appreciate your perspective that the first machine might serve better for drilling than the second. Why do you think the positioning would be better on the second?

[Jack_Ervin.]

I appreciate your perspective that the first machine might serve better for drilling than the second. Why do you think the positioning would be better on the second?

My observation is by the photos since both are FZ-5's. The second machine has outrigger table supports which will need to be floor mounted and leveled to the machine (three pieces of equipment and on a stable floor). This being said longer work pieces needing support would remain static in the Z. Also the Y travel definately has more capacity. The second machine definately has a larger XYZ envelope. I can see the scale for the Z travel though is mounted on the head and not on the column so there is a shorter measured travel at the DRO.

The Z positioning on the first machine is on the knee and the table has to move in relation to the floor. Any overhanging workpiece needing support will need adjustment on the outboard support as the Z table movement changes.

The high speed spindle is definitely a bonus though. Collet sizes for those quick change holders are usualy universally available to suit cutters both metric and inch.

Jack

[Chris Hall]

Again, I appreciate your insights.