Electric Hand Planers
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
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- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
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Re: Electric Hand Planers
"Putting legs on a table" and "Nakashima" is a potential discussion...
- Chris Pyle
- Deshi
- Location: St. Louis, MO
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Re: Electric Hand Planers
I had to addend my previous post. I have a terrible habit of half-replying.
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Re: Electric Hand Planers
I will add to this discussion, in regards to the use of slabs, is that while i do not design around slabs typically, and in situations in which either a slab or a frame and panel might be used, i invariably will choose frame and panel, sometimes using a slab intact is might be the best thing to do. For table tops, frame and panel offers a disadvantage of having expansion gaps which can collect dust and crud, though I am starting to find this less objectionable. Slabs can be used for table tops and with certain pieces of wood, it is going to be the most attractive choice. Example: I have a pair of gonçalo alves boards over 20" in width, and they practically cry out to be made into a tabletop or countertop, left largely intact. That wood is ridiculously hard and is wider than I can resaw, so it will likely end up left as a slab.
In some cases you will have a slab and be uncertain about how it might react to resawing, and if it has internal stresses, sometimes resawing can turn a good slab into a pile of nothing. so, there is risk in cutting up a slab. I have a cocobolo slab 1bout 18" wide and 10' long, and I would be nervous about resawing it. Similarly, I have a piece of macassar ebony at 11" wide, and resawing it into panels is scary - - but as I have no matches for it, using it as a single slab presents other problems, like what sort of piece would it make sense to use it in??
An advantage of purchasing a slab for resawing is that it allows freer choice in allotting grain to different pieces, and you know you will have perfect color match. And, with species not generally sawn for quarter, a slab is the only good place sometime where it can be obtained.
Still, compared to a year or two ago, my preference has definitely shifted away from the intact slab and in favor of frame and panel construction where possible.
In some cases you will have a slab and be uncertain about how it might react to resawing, and if it has internal stresses, sometimes resawing can turn a good slab into a pile of nothing. so, there is risk in cutting up a slab. I have a cocobolo slab 1bout 18" wide and 10' long, and I would be nervous about resawing it. Similarly, I have a piece of macassar ebony at 11" wide, and resawing it into panels is scary - - but as I have no matches for it, using it as a single slab presents other problems, like what sort of piece would it make sense to use it in??
An advantage of purchasing a slab for resawing is that it allows freer choice in allotting grain to different pieces, and you know you will have perfect color match. And, with species not generally sawn for quarter, a slab is the only good place sometime where it can be obtained.
Still, compared to a year or two ago, my preference has definitely shifted away from the intact slab and in favor of frame and panel construction where possible.
- Brian
- Deshi
Post
Re: Electric Hand Planers
Form divorced from function is known as post modernism. Not a fan.
There are many excellent modernist buildings and homes. Poul Kjearholm's house has long been a favorite of mine, as is the home of Paulo Mendes Da Rocha, Stahl house, Villa Tugendhat, House Lange and House Esters, Johnson's Glass House, Charlottenlund by Jacobsen, Finn Juhl House, etc.
Modernism was brought about as a reaction to the Victorian age and continuation of industrialism, not becuase people lacked respect for their predecessors. Thry were aiming to fix the issues which came about by those two things and were likely made necessary by the need to rebuild with efficient use of material and man power after two world wars.
Not everyone gets a timber framed house when your building for a booming population, if they did we would all be complaining about further deforestation.
The wonderful thing about steel buildings and bridges....we no longer need to cut up redwoods (whatever are left) in mass consumption for state projects.
Anywho I appreciate your comments on slabs, some wood can be nerve wracking to resaw. If it's any consolation I recent sawed 15" wide flat sawn Goncalo and and a bit of bowing but nothing too condemning.
I enjoy frame and panel work especially, your ming inspired table stands out as being one of my favorite works.
There are many excellent modernist buildings and homes. Poul Kjearholm's house has long been a favorite of mine, as is the home of Paulo Mendes Da Rocha, Stahl house, Villa Tugendhat, House Lange and House Esters, Johnson's Glass House, Charlottenlund by Jacobsen, Finn Juhl House, etc.
Modernism was brought about as a reaction to the Victorian age and continuation of industrialism, not becuase people lacked respect for their predecessors. Thry were aiming to fix the issues which came about by those two things and were likely made necessary by the need to rebuild with efficient use of material and man power after two world wars.
Not everyone gets a timber framed house when your building for a booming population, if they did we would all be complaining about further deforestation.
The wonderful thing about steel buildings and bridges....we no longer need to cut up redwoods (whatever are left) in mass consumption for state projects.
Anywho I appreciate your comments on slabs, some wood can be nerve wracking to resaw. If it's any consolation I recent sawed 15" wide flat sawn Goncalo and and a bit of bowing but nothing too condemning.
I enjoy frame and panel work especially, your ming inspired table stands out as being one of my favorite works.
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Re: Electric Hand Planers
Ouch!
You make a lot of judgments about me Daruma, many of which I consider off the mark. I'm sorry you feel that way, and... I don't feel a need to make a personal defense either.
You make a lot of judgments about me Daruma, many of which I consider off the mark. I'm sorry you feel that way, and... I don't feel a need to make a personal defense either.
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
While I don't think everyone should necessarily be owning a timber framed house, the embedded energy inherent in the use of modern materials like steel, glass and concrete, mean they have more severe environmental consequences, many of which are less obvious to us than deforestation. I'm sure you know this. Vastly more trees are cut down and burned worldwide simply to clear land for cattle and other livestock grazing than are harvested for timber. If a lot of people stopped eating meat, we'd have a lot more trees and a lot more fresh water. Again, this is old news i'm sure you know.
I do think that steel and glass and concrete are great materials in their own right and make things possible that timber cannot. The mass consumption of steel you mention, appears to me to have come about not out of any concern for reducing the use of timber, but because, via the Bessemer process, it became possible to produce it relatively cheaply and it is a material better suited to large structures and big spans (bridges, skyscrapers, etc.) than timber.
The houses you mention, well, sorry but they leave me cold. Zero interest. I subscribe to several design websites and see a lot of different modernist architecture, but virtually none of it interests me or compels me to look in more detail. I guess I find it surprising that anyone likes it, especially someone like you Brian who also likes to work with such an old school material as solid wood. It seems slightly contradictory. One would think you would have gravitated towards, I don't know, welding steel, or fabricating composite materials. So, for me, it is a curious thing. We all have our apparent contradictions of course...
Re: Electric Hand Planers
Well, I guess we're on quite different pages there. I have a different understanding as to how/why modernism came out. As I understand it, the Arts and Crafts movement was a reaction to Victorian art and aesthetic excesses, followed by Art Deco, in part reaction to that. Modernism was more a reaction to perceptions as to the causes of the first World War, against social hierarchy, industrial capitalism, and so forth. Modernism came out of the Bauhaus and other cliques which were idealizing socialism as a way forward and wanted to remove all architectural references which were markings of hierarchy. Hence the removal of the eave, dropping the use of elements from classical orders, etc..Brian wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:40 pmForm divorced from function is known as post modernism. Not a fan.
There are many excellent modernist buildings and homes. Poul Kjearholm's house has long been a favorite of mine, as is the home of Paulo Mendes Da Rocha, Stahl house, Villa Tugendhat, House Lange and House Esters, Johnson's Glass House, Charlottenlund by Jacobsen, Finn Juhl House, etc.
Modernism was brought about as a reaction to the Victorian age and continuation of industrialism, not becuase people lacked respect for their predecessors. Thry were aiming to fix the issues which came about by those two things and were likely made necessary by the need to rebuild with efficient use of material and man power after two world wars.
Not everyone gets a timber framed house when your building for a booming population, if they did we would all be complaining about further deforestation.
The wonderful thing about steel buildings and bridges....we no longer need to cut up redwoods (whatever are left) in mass consumption for state projects.
Anywho I appreciate your comments on slabs, some wood can be nerve wracking to resaw. If it's any consolation I recent sawed 15" wide flat sawn Goncalo and and a bit of bowing but nothing too condemning.
I enjoy frame and panel work especially, your ming inspired table stands out as being one of my favorite works.
While I don't think everyone should necessarily be owning a timber framed house, the embedded energy inherent in the use of modern materials like steel, glass and concrete, mean they have more severe environmental consequences, many of which are less obvious to us than deforestation. I'm sure you know this. Vastly more trees are cut down and burned worldwide simply to clear land for cattle and other livestock grazing than are harvested for timber. If a lot of people stopped eating meat, we'd have a lot more trees and a lot more fresh water. Again, this is old news i'm sure you know.
I do think that steel and glass and concrete are great materials in their own right and make things possible that timber cannot. The mass consumption of steel you mention, appears to me to have come about not out of any concern for reducing the use of timber, but because, via the Bessemer process, it became possible to produce it relatively cheaply and it is a material better suited to large structures and big spans (bridges, skyscrapers, etc.) than timber.
The houses you mention, well, sorry but they leave me cold. Zero interest. I subscribe to several design websites and see a lot of different modernist architecture, but virtually none of it interests me or compels me to look in more detail. I guess I find it surprising that anyone likes it, especially someone like you Brian who also likes to work with such an old school material as solid wood. It seems slightly contradictory. One would think you would have gravitated towards, I don't know, welding steel, or fabricating composite materials. So, for me, it is a curious thing. We all have our apparent contradictions of course...
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
And one thing I did want to note: you mention that this is supposed to be a forum about traditional Japanese carpentry, however it is not. It is about craftsmanship in wood, and innovation within traditional practice. No mention of Japanese anything. Sure I personally mostly use Japanese tools and have devoted a fair amount of time to Japanese carpentry topics here, but this forum is not meant to be exclusively on that topic. I would very much welcome discussions about French carpentry drawing, or Chinese furniture making/architecture. I'd be interested to talk about German window and door making. I could talk about European woodworking machines until the cows come home. So long as it involves solid wood and an approach to making things which use material well and so that it lasts it's all fodder for conversation as far as I am concerned.
Re: Electric Hand Planers
Apology appreciated. You may not be trying, but you seem to do quite well at judging me. You previous comment had little in the way of expressing feelings, save perhaps anger. That came through clearly enough.
And one thing I did want to note: you mention that this is supposed to be a forum about traditional Japanese carpentry, however it is not. It is about craftsmanship in wood, and innovation within traditional practice. No mention of Japanese anything. Sure I personally mostly use Japanese tools and have devoted a fair amount of time to Japanese carpentry topics here, but this forum is not meant to be exclusively on that topic. I would very much welcome discussions about French carpentry drawing, or Chinese furniture making/architecture. I'd be interested to talk about German window and door making. I could talk about European woodworking machines until the cows come home. So long as it involves solid wood and an approach to making things which use material well and so that it lasts it's all fodder for conversation as far as I am concerned.
- Brian
- Deshi
Post
I understand entirely, those houses are not for everyone, but I do enjoy them. I've always pictured myself a steel and glass woodworking shop, wanting for floor to ceiling glass and so I could enjoy the beautiful days which pass me by as I work currently. That is probably bizarre for a woodworker when most yearn for timber frame. I enjoy timber frame most of all, anymore, and would enjoy living in a timber framed house more than a modern house I believe.
Re: Electric Hand Planers
Interesting, while I also understand Arts and Crafts to be a reaction to the Victorian age, I think both in fact a reaction to it yet Modernism, at least modern architects and industrial designers, hoped to refine the use of industrial process to create better and more appropriate use of its facility and to utilize the new materials such as steel. I believe it did gain significant traction after WWI and further more after WWII as more and more societies had to rebuild. In the case of the US, modern architects and industrial designers were working to accommodate a rapidly growing middle class. So I feel there are multiple reasons why it began to take hold, but really it comes down to a new material and so new uses for that material then being applied.Chris Hall wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:49 amWell, I guess we're on quite different pages there. I have a different understanding as to how/why modernism came out. As I understand it, the Arts and Crafts movement was a reaction to Victorian art and aesthetic excesses, followed by Art Deco, in part reaction to that. Modernism was more a reaction to perceptions as to the causes of the first World War, against social hierarchy, industrial capitalism, and so forth. Modernism came out of the Bauhaus and other cliques which were idealizing socialism as a way forward and wanted to remove all architectural references which were markings of hierarchy. Hence the removal of the eave, dropping the use of elements from classical orders, etc..Brian wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:40 pmForm divorced from function is known as post modernism. Not a fan.
There are many excellent modernist buildings and homes. Poul Kjearholm's house has long been a favorite of mine, as is the home of Paulo Mendes Da Rocha, Stahl house, Villa Tugendhat, House Lange and House Esters, Johnson's Glass House, Charlottenlund by Jacobsen, Finn Juhl House, etc.
Modernism was brought about as a reaction to the Victorian age and continuation of industrialism, not becuase people lacked respect for their predecessors. Thry were aiming to fix the issues which came about by those two things and were likely made necessary by the need to rebuild with efficient use of material and man power after two world wars.
Not everyone gets a timber framed house when your building for a booming population, if they did we would all be complaining about further deforestation.
The wonderful thing about steel buildings and bridges....we no longer need to cut up redwoods (whatever are left) in mass consumption for state projects.
Anywho I appreciate your comments on slabs, some wood can be nerve wracking to resaw. If it's any consolation I recent sawed 15" wide flat sawn Goncalo and and a bit of bowing but nothing too condemning.
I enjoy frame and panel work especially, your ming inspired table stands out as being one of my favorite works.
While I don't think everyone should necessarily be owning a timber framed house, the embedded energy inherent in the use of modern materials like steel, glass and concrete, mean they have more severe environmental consequences, many of which are less obvious to us than deforestation. I'm sure you know this. Vastly more trees are cut down and burned worldwide simply to clear land for cattle and other livestock grazing than are harvested for timber. If a lot of people stopped eating meat, we'd have a lot more trees and a lot more fresh water. Again, this is old news i'm sure you know.
I do think that steel and glass and concrete are great materials in their own right and make things possible that timber cannot. The mass consumption of steel you mention, appears to me to have come about not out of any concern for reducing the use of timber, but because, via the Bessemer process, it became possible to produce it relatively cheaply and it is a material better suited to large structures and big spans (bridges, skyscrapers, etc.) than timber.
The houses you mention, well, sorry but they leave me cold. Zero interest. I subscribe to several design websites and see a lot of different modernist architecture, but virtually none of it interests me or compels me to look in more detail. I guess I find it surprising that anyone likes it, especially someone like you Brian who also likes to work with such an old school material as solid wood. It seems slightly contradictory. One would think you would have gravitated towards, I don't know, welding steel, or fabricating composite materials. So, for me, it is a curious thing. We all have our apparent contradictions of course...
I understand entirely, those houses are not for everyone, but I do enjoy them. I've always pictured myself a steel and glass woodworking shop, wanting for floor to ceiling glass and so I could enjoy the beautiful days which pass me by as I work currently. That is probably bizarre for a woodworker when most yearn for timber frame. I enjoy timber frame most of all, anymore, and would enjoy living in a timber framed house more than a modern house I believe.
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Case in point would be the most iconic aspect of modernism, namely the flat roof. These did not come about because steel made them possible structurally. These came about because the architects who designed them were in love with certain ideas. Architects in the Bauhaus tradition seemed to fancy cubes, so they made houses like cubes, with flat roofs. These roofs were about purity, horizontality, de-materiality. They were the platonic ideal of forms, like cubes. Flat roofs were seen as machine-like, anti-romantic—and, for reasons which I never fully understand, fashionable.
Here's a quote in that vein:
As for the removal of the eave, column capitals and brackets, and the rest of the entablature (architrave, frieze, cornice), well, we can look to Austrian architect Adolf Loos, and his essay, "Ornament is a Crime" as a starting point. From what i understand, though, eaves smacked of elites and hierarchy, both associated to the causes and disastrous events of WWI, so they were removed by early modernists who had socialistic ideals they wanted to express.
It's nice to have big windows in a shop, I'll grant you that, though I can't say I spend a heap of time looking out those windows. It's more about having good light in general for me.
Re: Electric Hand Planers
I think that last sentence is an over-simplification, especially if we are talking steel and concrete. If it is simply a new material being applied, then one would expect, by and large, it would be applied to existing forms. Just like when cast iron was developed, it was formed to imitate wrought iron. But with modernism, forms changed, and the reasons for those changes to form do not cleanly tie to material.Brian wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:38 pm
Interesting, while I also understand Arts and Crafts to be a reaction to the Victorian age, I think both in fact a reaction to it yet Modernism, at least modern architects and industrial designers, hoped to refine the use of industrial process to create better and more appropriate use of its facility and to utilize the new materials such as steel. I believe it did gain significant traction after WWI and further more after WWII as more and more societies had to rebuild. In the case of the US, modern architects and industrial designers were working to accommodate a rapidly growing middle class. So I feel there are multiple reasons why it began to take hold, but really it comes down to a new material and so new uses for that material then being applied.
Case in point would be the most iconic aspect of modernism, namely the flat roof. These did not come about because steel made them possible structurally. These came about because the architects who designed them were in love with certain ideas. Architects in the Bauhaus tradition seemed to fancy cubes, so they made houses like cubes, with flat roofs. These roofs were about purity, horizontality, de-materiality. They were the platonic ideal of forms, like cubes. Flat roofs were seen as machine-like, anti-romantic—and, for reasons which I never fully understand, fashionable.
Here's a quote in that vein:
This movement to flat roofs has nothing to do with materials. Corbusier, who saw his individual houses as reproducible, machine-like units that could be configured into apartment blocks, knew that couldn't be done with gabled roofs. Bay area architect Walter Brooks notes, "...in the postwar years, Bay Area architects adopted the flat roof because it could be built with less material and much more cheaply than anything else". Emphasis mine. The cheapness of construction is, in my view, one of the main drivers of modern architecture."The goal of early modernists like Loos, historian Henry-Russell Hitchcock wrote in his 'Architecture: 19th and 20th Centuries,' was to clear "away inherited tradition in order to lay the foundation of an immanent new architecture." That meant stripping away not just applied ornament, but gabled or similarly capped houses. "The neutrality, not to say the negativity of the exteriors of his houses," Hitchcock wrote, provided a starting point for future European modernists.
By the time Le Corbusier, Mies, and Gropius began producing their mature work in the 1920s, no right-thinking European modernist would have produced any kind of roof but flat. For Corbusier, it was all about pure forms. As a painter, he worked with cubes, cylinders, rectangles, circles. One of his Five Points of Architecture was "the flat roof, appropriate to the idea of a house as a cube, since the pitched roof would spoil the desired unity of its rectangular shape."
As for the removal of the eave, column capitals and brackets, and the rest of the entablature (architrave, frieze, cornice), well, we can look to Austrian architect Adolf Loos, and his essay, "Ornament is a Crime" as a starting point. From what i understand, though, eaves smacked of elites and hierarchy, both associated to the causes and disastrous events of WWI, so they were removed by early modernists who had socialistic ideals they wanted to express.
It's nice to have big windows in a shop, I'll grant you that, though I can't say I spend a heap of time looking out those windows. It's more about having good light in general for me.
- Brian
- Deshi
Post
Re: Electric Hand Planers
Part of working in a concrete box underground has me wanting for working in a glass box above ground ![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
I think you make fair criticisms, I understand that they had interest in wanting to move away from what they considered to be bourgeois and elite fixtures. My understanding was that there was a practical aspect of this in that they wanted to provide a usable roof, in the case of Le Corbusier it was for roof gardens. In city centers this is quite practical and has been made to function with success.
I believe steel is easiest to produce in straight forms given the cost of tooling up for anything else. The early modernists must have had to consider scale for their projects as much as any other architect considers practical limitations. Later modern work shows this as it is not all boxes nor is it all flat roofs. Corbusiers Chapel in Ronchamp comes to mind, as does Nakashima's work with the Barrel vault and much of Carlo Scarpa's work which involves more complex forms.
The great ironies of modernism are not lost on me. Modernist work is expensive to produce and is largely considered a luxury good at this point. Moreover the houses were mainly commissioned by wealthy benefactors and often times ran well over budget (so much for economy). Farnsworth house stands out in my mind, its tiny and cost well over a million dollars in today's money to build.
I don't consider it perfect and its ethos is not mine but I enjoy it none the less.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
I think you make fair criticisms, I understand that they had interest in wanting to move away from what they considered to be bourgeois and elite fixtures. My understanding was that there was a practical aspect of this in that they wanted to provide a usable roof, in the case of Le Corbusier it was for roof gardens. In city centers this is quite practical and has been made to function with success.
I believe steel is easiest to produce in straight forms given the cost of tooling up for anything else. The early modernists must have had to consider scale for their projects as much as any other architect considers practical limitations. Later modern work shows this as it is not all boxes nor is it all flat roofs. Corbusiers Chapel in Ronchamp comes to mind, as does Nakashima's work with the Barrel vault and much of Carlo Scarpa's work which involves more complex forms.
The great ironies of modernism are not lost on me. Modernist work is expensive to produce and is largely considered a luxury good at this point. Moreover the houses were mainly commissioned by wealthy benefactors and often times ran well over budget (so much for economy). Farnsworth house stands out in my mind, its tiny and cost well over a million dollars in today's money to build.
I don't consider it perfect and its ethos is not mine but I enjoy it none the less.
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