Possible Mortiser Acquisition

If it has an electrical cord it is covered here.
User avatar
Chris Hall
Site Admin
Contact:
Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:16 pm

Value is subjective. One man's junk is another man's treasure as they say. What you paid for a thing is x, what you sell it for is usually going to be x minus some amount, and those that make a living buying and selling things need to get x + some amount to stay in business.

When it comes to machinery, they are invariably depreciating assets. The only time you are typically going to sell a machine for what you paid for it or more is when:

- you got the machine for a lower-than-normal price in the first place
- the machine is desirable and there are few of them on the market at any given time, and the price of new ones is prohibitive. Scarcity drives price.
-you found a way to improve/beautify its condition without spending a lot of money. Machine dealers invariably rattle-can paint any machine to bring the price up.

For instance, a 20-year old martin planer might ordinarily be selling for $10,000~12,000, however if there are none of them on the used market, and haven't been any on the market for years (which is in fact the case), and the price of a new one is hovering around $30,000, then a guy who bought a Martin planer for $10,000 and used it for a few years might well be able to turn around and sell it on the market today for $15,000. if Martin planers popped up on the Market every 2~3 months, then a number of $15,000 would generally be 'over-priced'.

Similarly with cars. When I was a kid you could pick up used late 60's muscle cars or British sports cars for $5000 or less for a lot of models, but now they're fetching big numbers at the auctions the prices have shot up for certain models. Some used things follow a price curve where they depreciate and depreciate down to some rock bottom point, and then begin climbing again. Other items hit bottom and that's about it. The number of big woodworking and metal working machines that have been sold for scrap because they become worthless at some point in time, is astounding.

The thing is, with a machine which cost $40,000 new, say, the cost of rebuilding it to 'new' condition, in reality might be more than $40,000. And with a lot of old machines, forget about obtaining parts in most cases. This is the reality of milling machines at least. And add into that the use of complex electronics, which are hard to fix and often once obsolete the entire machine, even if it is not worn out, must be scrapped.

The electronics are driving things now. The manufacturers know that the electronics have a finite lifespan - and there is no point to making them to have an especially long lifespan given the rate of improvement with computers these days. So, once you start designing around that reality, then it makes no sense to build the rest of the machine to significantly outlast the window of usefulness for the electronics.
User avatar
Brian
Deshi
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:46 am

Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:47 pm

If you can find a niche that provides a good margin and are willing to tool up to suit that niche than you can probably do well.

I’d happily fix machines up for people, but I don’t have enough space to do it on a speculative level.

My lathe doesn’t provide much margin, even if I brought it up to better than new, which would be basically how it sits now with new paint and a set of spindle bearings.

The math makes little sense, however at this point. Lathe plus drive cost me $1000, aluminum and motor are $800~ new, and my hours are so far about 20 in fixing/restoring.
To sell it at a near new price it would need to be stripped and powder coated.
A better lathe can be had for $3500 so there is very little margin as no one would pay more than $2000~ for this unit in my guesstimation.

There is stuff that makes it so tough, you have to be prepared to receive machinery (pay to have it shipped) and willing to pay for it basically sight unseen and willing to repair whatever arrives. I assume this is another reason why few people restore these machines beyond the one-off machines really suitable to a niche like Maka or Martin. It makes sense to do it on really wonderful machines, like martins if you can do the majority of the work in house and really bring it back to spec. People will buy old/good used planers and maybe sliding saws.

Anyways, WRT the horizontal machines I agree I don't see how they're going to really behave like an upright machine with such a simple setup. I will provide warning however that a milling machine is not a mortiser, the quill feed is not made to be levered on. If anything you might be able to lock the spindle in place and raise the bed, but that would be painfully slow.

I have designs planned on how to build a serious fence for my horizontal machine to make up for one of the poorer aspects of this type of setup, along with an air clamp.
User avatar
john verge
4
4
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:55 pm

Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:05 pm

Thanks for that guys, lots of good info!
User avatar
john verge
4
4
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:55 pm

Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:51 pm

Chris, in that Martin scenario you outlined ,it struck me that the new purchase would be the right choice given the non-existence of readily available used ones. If a woodworker had plenty of work out in front of them and they were in a position to write the check or finance then to have a brand new machine to get on with the work might be the right choice. That extra $15,000 over to obtain the new unit might be the better value.

I agree , value is a subjective thing for sure and making the right decisions around this subject is a pretty personal thing.
User avatar
Chris Hall
Site Admin
Contact:
Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:58 pm

Brian wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:47 pm
Anyways, WRT the horizontal machines I agree I don't see how they're going to really behave like an upright machine with such a simple setup. I will provide warning however that a milling machine is not a mortiser, the quill feed is not made to be levered on. If anything you might be able to lock the spindle in place and raise the bed, but that would be painfully slow.
I'm not quite following, though I recognize you are likely speaking from a 'Bridgeport perspective', which, as you know, are light duty in respect to most milling machines. If the machine is designed for metal work, and weighs 7000 lbs, and is designed with a quill that can feed, vertically or horizontally, then I would tend to think it will go into wood almost as if it were foam. I just don't see wood being such a heavy load on the parts. I generally find that is the case with my Zimmermann mill. The wood, as such hardly seems to impede the cut, and the knee rise speed is certainly quick enough.

But, that said, even if it could be made to work with a hollow chisel on a milling machine, I'm not sure I would got that way: it was more a thought experiment. I have never found hollow chisels to be reliably good at producing perfectly clean mortises. If I need to make the through mortise, or a peg hole which is very obvious to view, then the hollow chisel machine for me is for roughing only. I've resorted, at times, to drilling out a peg hole and then using the hollow chisel along as a hole punch to obtain a clean mortise.

Hence my attention is increasingly turning to a good slot mortiser, squaring up afterwards. So, keen to hear how you like yours, even though i'm never gonna buy a Felder :)
User avatar
Chris Hall
Site Admin
Contact:
Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:00 pm

john verge wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:51 pm
Chris, in that Martin scenario you outlined ,it struck me that the new purchase would be the right choice given the non-existence of readily available used ones. If a woodworker had plenty of work out in front of them and they were in a position to write the check or finance then to have a brand new machine to get on with the work might be the right choice. That extra $15,000 over to obtain the new unit might be the better value.
Agreed, if you have the money, and the new version of the machine meets your needs as well.
User avatar
Brian
Deshi
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:46 am

Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:41 am

Chris, I'm in regular contact with the machinist I worked for, he provided warning to me against such use and mentioned that the quill feed gearing is cast iron. The feed on a mortiser is going to be steel and built to have a 2' bar leveraging against it. The quill feed is not quite as substantial. I would definitely investigate your quill feed further before you lever on it and if you find it's built like a tank than have at it.

At this point I'd be happy to dump the idea of using this as hollow chisel mortiser if you think it's a waste of time. I'm actually very happy with the quality of the slot mortises which is affecting my interest to buy the hollow chisel arrangement but I did find some videos on youtube of this exact machine being used as a hollow chisel machine and appeared as through the chisels needed to be sharpened but not much else appeared particularly rough.

Anywho, I bought a Rangate birdsmouth bit (carbide brazed) after searching through endless reviews on various bit types. The poor fellow at Rangate answered about 50 questions before making a $70 sale, but he was honest with me and I think this bit is great.

This is the mortise result, this is coming in from both sides, there is zero step and there are clean sides. These took me a few minutes each;

Image

I knocked a mortise in from the side as well, that I have not squared up yet. I wanted to see how it would breach through the back of the mortise. If it were a show face then it would need backup but in this case it broke through with very minimal tearout.

Image

What appears to be a step is actually light shining through from the intersecting mortise.

Image


This is the video that I found:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQtCzPlbtyI
User avatar
Chris Hall
Site Admin
Contact:
Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:20 am

Those mortises look good for me, and they prove both the cutter works well and your stock prep is as it should be.

The video shows a working arrangement with the hollow chisel on the FD250, but 10mm hollow chisel + walnut = easy mortising.

It is particularly with woods which have pronounced differences in early wood/late wood densities where the grain can deflect the hollow chisel auger. Walnut is not one of those woods.

The only place where I feel a hollow chisel is indispensable is peg hole mortising for orthogonal work. For angled work I use round pegs, and for elongated mortises I am preferring to use other approaches, as mentioned previously. So, can't say I would want to be without some form of hollow chisel capacity, but it won't be the main tool for me.
User avatar
Brian
Deshi
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:46 am

Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:24 am

Thanks Chris!
Ah, I see. That’s maybe the arrangement I will work around as well. I’m looking at the chisels that Felder sells, I know you are not interested in Felder but I’m looking at them for reference to the changes they might make to have a hollow chisel work horizontally.
It looks like most bits have a center point, like Star M, the Felder do not. I’m not sure if this is common or unusual.
User avatar
Chris Hall
Site Admin
Contact:
Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:23 pm

The usual American or British hollow chisel auger lacks the center spur, while the Japanese ones always have the spur. That's far as I know - haven't seen every machine and chisel ever made of course!

Return to “Heavy Metal”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests