Possible Mortiser Acquisition

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Chris Hall
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Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:44 pm

I've been interested in obtaining a hollow chisel mortiser to replace the Powermatci 719 I currently use. Besides the fact that the Powermatic is a POS, it's not mine, and the owner (landlord0sometimes talks about taking it back to do some window making, so i really need to get my own machine.

Choices in hollow chisel mortisers are not great. It's either:

-cheap desktop mounted models from East Asia (not Japan)
-antique machines, generally totally worn out
-new or used machines from Japan, which are expensive and divided into timber frame type and furniture type.
-used British machines, like Wadkin, Robinson, etc.

There's another British machine though, made by Brookman, a company otherwise known for their dovetailing machines, and that is the ULH 'Hydraulectric' mortiser. This machine is very heavily built and I find it quite appealing.

Here's a nice looking example listed on a British used machinery site:

brookman-538x905.jpg
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This one is fitted with the 'electromatic' device fitted to the top of the head, and optional extra. Otherwise, mortising is controlled via the 4-position foot pedal, which can swing to left and right modes. The wood clamping is hydraulic, as is the head raise/lower, and for some reason this one has just a single table clamp, when there are supposed to be two horizontal ones and two vertical ones. The cap covering the top sprockets and chain appears to be missing as well.

I've asked the company selling the above machine several times for a price but they never reply.

Today, while searching for the machine again, I came across one which had been on Ebay.uk last year and had not sold:

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This machine looks quite original, unmolested, and complete. I took a chance and contacted the seller to see if he had sold it or not and he replied and still has the machine, having only tried once with an Ebay auction. So, we're discussing further. He runs a joinery business but their business has shifted over mostly to making European-type windows, which use bridle jointed corner joints instead of mortise and tenon, so they just haven't been using the machine at all and it takes up a lot of room. We'll see where this leads. He asked me to make an offer - how much do you think it is worth?
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Brian
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Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:12 pm

Awesome machine! I’m not sure where it should be price wise, of course the shipping likely weighs heavily into it for you and hollow chisel mortises are increasingly less sought.

Maybe 2500~
John Whitley
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Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:26 am

Chris, I note that the Felder FD 250 horizontal mortiser has a chisel unit option. Is that something you’ve considered?
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Chris Hall
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Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:39 am

Brian wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:12 pm
Awesome machine! I’m not sure where it should be price wise, of course the shipping likely weighs heavily into it for you and hollow chisel mortises are increasingly less sought.

Maybe 2500~
I have looked in vain to find any sort of recent sales history for the Brookman, and I guess they are very uncommon. All i know is that the fellow with the machine for sale had only received bids up to 500£, and that had not met his reserve.

And yes, shipping and crating are going to take a bite.

At this point the machine looks great, however i notice it does not seem to have any provision for doing angled mortises, which I do make from time to time, however 90% or more the mortising tackled is 90˚ of course.
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Chris Hall
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Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:41 am

John Whitley wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:26 am
Chris, I note that the Felder FD 250 horizontal mortiser has a chisel unit option. Is that something you’ve considered?
Oh yeah. Familiar with the machine and have been waiting for a review from Brian as he bought one a month or two back with the hollow chisel attachment. I'm not enthusiastic otherwise abut Felder products in general though.

A slot mortiser would be a very useful machine to have. It seems like you really can't do it all with just one type of mortiser.
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Brian
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Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:39 am

I don't actually have the hollow mortising attachment yet, waiting to wrap up my kitchen job for that, but happy so far with the machine in it's function as a slot mortiser.

There is good an bad about Felder, IMO, I think the machine is well made. I received it with 14 years of factory use and after wiping down and fixing a few minor things that someone actively messed with it's proven to be in nearly new condition, that says a lot about build quality when so many machines can't even handle gentle use from a solo craftsman when the use is regular. The machine is quiet and vibration free. It's truly super quiet, the only piece of machinery I can comfortably run after hours and not bother my neighbors. It's powerful and the ways operate nicely.

I'm getting ready to cut 32 identical mortises on it, so once I complete that job I'll post a worthwhile review of the machine. It's been sitting idle mostly as I've been working out other aspects of my chair build and building some kitchen cabinetry. The cabinets do have mortises so some of them will be cut on the machine.

I bought the machine used, but the annoying part of Felder is that everything is ala-carte. Nothing comes with the machines, so you have a nickle/dime approach to getting the machine that you wanted and all said and done it's about $6,000 brand new ($4500~ plus accessories). That's awful spendy for this machine, in my opinion.

The mortising attachment is $600 + chisels, the fence is $225.

The eccentric clamp works well, but I will replace that with an air clamp. I plan to make some air clamps for the machine shortly after my dad and I swap air compressors. He very rarely uses a nice Ingersol rand two-stage compressor and so will swap it for my crappy craftsman.

This is outside of the realm of my personal experience, but IMO with a larger budget I'd consider a well kept or restored Maka SM series and use that for everything rectangular. I understand that they're prone to needing regular maintenance, but they do perform exceptionally well from what I've seen.
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Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:55 am

My lack of enthusiasm about Felder comes about after having owned one - a BF41 combo machine. Get back to me after a few years, after you've had more time using it, maybe had things go wrong, maybe had to deal with their parts department, maybe wanting to adjust something which is out of whack and find the factory made the machine so it can't be adjusted. YMMV of course.

I've looked at Maka a lot, along with Lari and Lari. The definitely cut very clean square mortises lightning fast. I've long wanted one, but:

-chisels are very expensive and do do a decent range of mortising tasks you'll need quite a few different ones
-Maka at one time made a sharpening machine for the chisels, but these are hard to find. Without it, you are either at the whim/skill of your local sharpening service, who will likely be unfamiliar with such cutters, or trying to do it yourself. If the chisels aren't cutting crisp and clean the wear and tear on the head increases exponentially.
-Maka is no longer in business so parts are a challenge - and on a machine that needs regular upkeep, parts are not a minor concern. And if you don't have a good contact in Germany for parts, then you are going to have to deal with Mark Hennebury at Solid Wood Machinery, and he certainly charges a pretty penny. Not saying he is unreasonable, but it's an expensive machine to run it seems to me. Chisels average $300/chisel to buy, and that's for used ones.

The SM-7P looks to be the most versatile, but the STV61 and STV71 are more heavy duty and have a deeper depth of cut. Depth of cut with the SM-7P is only 90mm. That ain't much, just over 3.5". If you're building doors, definitely not enough for blind mortises.

It seems to me that the Maka is most ideal for window making, however window making as such these days generally does not involve mortise and tenon work.
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Brian
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Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:58 pm

At the machine shop I worked at we routinely took on "interesting" work, which is that stuff that Paul would take on to make certain that life was not so monotonous. So I guess part of me doesn't mind having to improvise, but the expense of doing so is daunting at times. We often dealt with stuff so long out of production that even going to the expense of buying a 'parts' motor was completely out of the realm of possibilities.

Personally I had planned to buy a cup type CBN grinding wheel and build a fixture to grind them with my Bridgeport. I would cover the ways to prevent grit from embedding into them, which is a hazard of using the improper machinery for such a task. However I assume that if you can repeat the geometry with ease the task can be made quite simple.

The costs of all of these things can be a real PITA, but we're both pretty spoiled in the fact that we have machinery available to us that most woodworkers do not, a Bridgeport in my case and a pattern machine in yours. I'm friendly with my local machine shop so anything round they handle, but beyond that there isn't much that can't be reproduced with some creative efforts.

It's a giant PITA, but seems there are very options that are not a giant PITA when it comes to making square holes.

I have heard similar WRT Felder, so I generally lean on minimax. Sam is good, the parts people are good so I'm so far pretty happy with them.

Looking on the bright side, when it comes to Maka...at least you do have Mark Hennebury to help you. With so many other out of production machines you can only rely upon yourself or an unknown person who may be able to help, like contracting a machine shop. The expense of fixing such things can be completely outrageous and unknown where Mark can likely give you an idea of what your looking at. I've never found myself in a blank-check writing situation, so at least having known or foreseeable variables is helpful.
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Chris Hall
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Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:15 pm

"Personally I had planned to buy a cup type CBN grinding wheel and build a fixture to grind them with my Bridgeport. I would cover the ways to prevent grit from embedding into them, which is a hazard of using the improper machinery for such a task. However I assume that if you can repeat the geometry with ease the task can be made quite simple. "

From what I gather, talking to joe Calhoun, the steel on those Maka cutters is really hard and not so easy to machine.

Speaking of Mark Hennebury, I understand he doesn't want to sharpen the Maka cutters any more and got rid of his grinder for that purpose. This is hearsay, as i haven't spoken to Mark directly. He does a nice job restoring machines.

-----------

I'm still waiting on pictures and a video from the seller of the Brookman, but I'm starting to think that the lack of a table which can be inclined is going to be too much of a negative in regards to that machine. I've contacted the distributor for Hofmann machines in the US and have asked them to ask the company if they would provide a hollow chisel attachment for their slot mortising machine. I reckon they make the best slot mortising machine. Buying a new machine might be the way to go for peace of mind.

Or it might not, since I am badly wanting a better table saw and the milling machine still looms as a problem in need of fixing. I'm relatively decided upon what sort of saw to get, at least most days of the week, but the milling machine solution eludes me. I've looked at countless different machines. There are some awesome mills for metal, but the speed is too slow on most of them, without a high speed head, to make it worthwhile, and the ones with bigger tables and travel can be extremely heavy. There is another Zimmermann in Germany available, but they want 6000€ for it, which makes it over $10,000 to land in Boston, so that's just a whole heck of a lot of money. Not compared to what a new Zimmermann CNC machine costs, but a lot for little old me.
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Re: Possible Mortiser Acquisition

Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:54 pm

Thanks for the suggestions Jacob. There's a lot to consider and many options it seems.

The issue with placing a sloped sub table on top of the table is that it subtracts space vertically, which can limit the size of stock that you can place, a fact that increases with amount of tilt. I don't know how much room there is with the head of the machine in the fully raised position, that's one thing. Clamping pieces can be a problem with higher tilts too. Another issue with vertical machines in general, whether the table tilts or you use a sub table, is that longer stock will run into the floor, limiting the length of stick you can mortise. Sometimes i have had to tilt the entire machine over to get clearance.

That's an advantage to the horizontal machines - essentially you could park a battleship next to the machine and bore a hole - not limit to length of stick really.

My Powermatic 719 has a table which tilts about 30˚, but in one direction only, which is a PITA.

And with the Brookman, besides the purchase price - which I kinda hope would be in the 1000~2000£ range, is that crating and shipping will be on top, so it is likely to be costing over that $5000 mark when all is said and done. I'm still interested in it though, nothing has been ruled out yet.

Another conventional chisel mortising machine I have thought looked good is a Bell#81, but these seem to be quite rare:

PICT0051.JPG
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How's that for stout?! I've only ever come across one of these for sale, and of course didn't have the money at the time. Can't find any info on the machine otherwise.

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