What's in the Bag?

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durbien
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What's in the Bag?

Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:55 am

I have been wanting to start this topic for awhile now, and maybe it is super basic and not of interest to others (especially the pros out there), but it is fascinating to me. Almost bordering on my obsession with Japanese layout marks, but not quite.. :shock:

In many videos of actual Japanese Carpenters (i.e. making houses in Japan) you see them wearing bags. Or, I should say, a single bag. Usually attached to a belt, and riding on one hip. Now having taken some classes in Western Carpentry, I've seen what tools are considered essential to be carried in Western bags. Frankly, it's a ton of stuff. But looking at the average Japanese Carpenter, it looks like he carries:

A Hammer
A Chisel

That's it. Oh, maybe there are TWO chisels. Or nails in the pouches you can't see, or a few odd tools. But not the 40 lbs of stuff framers carry in the US. I've always been curious as to what kinds of tools are carried in this bag. And then I saw this video, a virtual cornucopia of bags:

https://youtu.be/oPOWWoCBQCA

(don't know how to embed that)

So now I see:

A Folding Saw (OK, this is an ad for folding saws, so you can kind of discount that, but still..)
Nailset/Catspaw (I think it's interesting that you can't find non-Japanese versions of catspaws in the US anymore)
Small Prybar

The guy at :44 is positively bristling with tools:

A chalk/inkline in a separate sheath?
Some kind of electric tool (maybe a drill? meter?) that has a plastic tackle box attached to it (for bits/screws?)
Screwdrivers! Maybe this guy's an electrician..

There's lots of other stuff I find neat in that video - mainly because the idea of "Japanese Carpentry" in this country is so romanticized - whisper fine shavings with planes, working on giant temples, samurai swordsmithing, etc. These guys don't have time for that crap - too busy working!

OK, so now the inevitable questions:

THE HAMMERS:

Why is the Funate style hammer popular with Carpenters? I've seen this described as a Boat Builder's hammer. I'm not sure how the pointed end is used in Boat Building, but it's always described as being for driving nails in tight spaces, or for setting nails. I've tried doing both with mine and it's not easy.

There are a couple of guys in the video with what a Westerner would normally call a "Japanese Chisel Hammer" (notably with curved and/or D shaped handles so they know which end they're using). Noticeably absent (at least in this video) is the "Kariwaku" framing hammer (with the "bugle" or "duck bill" head, as my classmates call mine), though maybe that's because no one is stick framing or driving nails.

I find it amusing the hammers are always in the bag with the handle out (sometimes the handle's sticking WAY out) instead of in a loop or hasp as a Western Carpenter might have it. Most of the guys here in CA have their hammers in loops in the small of their back, so the handle is hanging straight down between their legs like a tail. I find this awkward.

THE CHISEL(S):

I understand that each Carpenter is different and that it's impossible to know the conditions each is working under, but what kind of chisels are being carried? There is so much emphasis in the West about Japanese Toolboxes and how all the chisels are arranged therein.. Well, these guys are only carrying one or two, so which ones do they carry? Big, wide, bench chisels? Tataki nomi? Paring chisels? Mortise chisels? If they're carrying two, would they be the same style but different sizes, or could one be a striking chisel while the other was paring, etc.?

Would the Carpenter be carrying the best chisel he could afford, or would he be carrying a cheap but cheerful one that he could afford to lose? In my Western Finish Carpentry class we weren't encouraged to buy "good" tools as we were expected to either lose or abuse them. Something tells me this is not the case in Japan, but maybe that's me stereotyping again.

OTHER MISC. ?s:

I'm sure most in the West would chuckle at the tabis. I haven't had the guts to try them on a Western jobsite yet (and they'd probably never be allowed). But another thing I thought was interesting was how many guys are wearing gloves. We were taught wearing gloves (especially when using power tools) is blatantly unsafe - and yet, in Japan, no problem. Of course those guys are working on the roof without fall arrest gear too, and I've yet to see a video that featured someone wearing safety glasses, so whatever.

Speaking of power tools, this video doesn't show saws (since they're trying to sell you on their folding saw), but I've seen plenty of videos where guys are using circular saws and electric drills. For residential-scale carpentry, are hand saws still used, or is it all electric? I'm just going to assume no one is using braces or gimlets to make holes on jobsites in Japan!

Other than the guy who I think is wearing an ink or chalk line (and the roofers who appear to have sumitsubo laying about on the roof), do Japanese Carpenters carry layout tools with them? What about tape measures? Marking knives? I suppose a lot of this has to do with how much work is done in the shop vs. onsite, but it seems odd not to have a tape on your belt. I don't know how you could carry a sashigane in that little bag though.. If they're not carrying the tools on them, would they always just be in their toolboxes? And speaking of toolboxes, where are they? In their pickups behind their gun racks? :D Would they still be made of wood?

If anyone has any insight to any of those questions, I'd sure appreciate it.

Darrell
Last edited by durbien on Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
durbien
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Re: What's in the Bag?

Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:30 pm

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Paul Atzenweiler
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Re: What's in the Bag?

Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:03 am

I am unfortunately a person who struggles with getting and staying organized. When starting a project, I will have a perfect work area and I will look confidently at my bench and "just know" that I will (this time) stay organized. So when you mentioned the cluttered work belts of Western carpenters, I have to hang my head because I have been one of those guys. When I was actually building houses and had my framing belt, it would get pretty embarrassing - and heavy! I don't know why I felt I had to carry everything I might possibly need.
When you mentioned the starkness of Japanese carpenter's belts I wonder if it is because each craftsman is so specialized they don't need a variety of tools? Are the pieces all cut off site? Very interesting.
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Chris Hall
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Re: What's in the Bag?

Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:33 pm

Are the pieces all cut off site? Very interesting.
In a western work site, most of the materials come to site as raw materials - a lift of plywood, a lift of sheet rock, a lift of 2x6's, etc.. The carpenter cuts stuff to length and fits it with butt joints and staples or nails. The doors come to site as a pre-hung unit, built in a factory somewhere, as are the windows.
The finish stairs come to site as a kit, with the parts shaped but not cut to length typically. The main power tools on site are a chop saw, circular saws, and a compressor.

On a Japanese work site, if they are doing traditional construction work, most of the parts have been cut off site. The frame is a giant kit, all precut. A few things are left long, like floorboards, rafter tips, and so forth, but most of it is cut at the shop to dimension. If the building takes a tile roof, the dimension of the roof surface would be to accommodate the tiles exactly. If there is a tiled room inside somewhere, like a bathroom, the room will have been sized to the tiles. More time spent in careful design and less time fitting and fiddling on site. Some parts are pre-made but with rom to make on-site fitting, like sliding doors. A typical site will have a portable super surfacer for final clean up of interior parts that must be fit to some extent - like the parts in a ceiling for example, flooring in a closet, etc..

If you followed the gate build I did recently, that shows an example of the latter approach. All the wooden parts were fabricated at my shop and then brought to site where most of the work was assembly and the raising of the structure, hanging of the doors, etc..

Western timber framing follows this approach, however once the frame is up they leave and then regular carpenters come in and fit stuff around the frame.
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Re: What's in the Bag?

Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:45 pm

Darrell, thanks for starting this thread- I too am very interested to learn how other folks set up and go about their work. I can only guess about Japanese carpenter's tool belt habits, but in my work I usually try to carry (almost) the bare minimum of tools required for the task at hand. I'm loaded up pretty heavy when on a ladder or roof making repairs, to minimize trips down. But when running trim I'll just carry a few tools on my person (pencil, compass, small combo square, block plane) and have everything else in a bag close by. Handsaws and chisels tend to 'float' nearby since I don't have a good way to carry them on me, yet. I'm looking into a chisel holder, and maybe I'll try out one of those folding saws... Yay marketing!

I think your toolbelt load should be determined first (obviously) by the specific task you're doing for the next few hours, the size of the work area, and space available to set other tools down without being in the way or subject to damage.

I've also wondered about the hammer head-down in the bag.

I think I saw a few corded circular saws in the video...
durbien
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Re: What's in the Bag?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:39 am

Thanks for the responses.. :P
Chris Hall wrote:If you followed the gate build I did recently, that shows an example of the latter approach. All the wooden parts were fabricated at my shop and then brought to site where most of the work was assembly and the raising of the structure, hanging of the doors, etc.
So when you were working in Japan, or for East Wind, what tools were you carrying during installation? Or did you have everything in toolboxes? If the latter, were they wooden toolboxes (like in Odate's book), or something more modern?

Matt, I too carry a block plane on my Finish belt for easing edges, trimming end grain, and scribing. I don't know if there's a Japanese equivalent for that tool (are the smaller kanna used as we use block planes?) I suppose a small kanna could be lurking in a Japanese toolbag as well.

Anyone know the Japanese name for the bag? Or the Kanji for it? Might make it easier for me to Google it.

Darrell
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Chris Hall
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Re: What's in the Bag?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:36 pm

durbien wrote:So when you were working in Japan, or for East Wind, what tools were you carrying during installation? Or did you have everything in toolboxes? If the latter, were they wooden toolboxes (like in Odate's book), or something more modern?

Matt, I too carry a block plane on my Finish belt for easing edges, trimming end grain, and scribing. I don't know if there's a Japanese equivalent for that tool (are the smaller kanna used as we use block planes?) I suppose a small kanna could be lurking in a Japanese toolbag as well.

Anyone know the Japanese name for the bag? Or the Kanji for it? Might make it easier for me to Google it.

Darrell
I sometimes wear a Carhartt nail apron, but that is about it. I kept my tools in tool bags and boxes. I use both wooden boxes and plastic boxes, systainers, etc..

The general Japanese term for the carry bag is '道具袋', read dōgu-bukuro. It means 'tool bag', surprise-surprise.... This comes in a wide range of forms.

Another term, for the type carried on a belt, is '腰袋', koshi-bukuro, meaning 'hip bag'. There's a wide range of configurations of those:
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everythingsings
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Re: What's in the Bag?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:02 pm

durbien wrote:I find it amusing the hammers are always in the bag with the handle out (sometimes the handle's sticking WAY out) instead of in a loop or hasp as a Western Carpenter might have it.

My first week working on the job site of a Japanese building I had my hammer and other tools hanging off my belt and was thoroughly scolded. Anything swinging off your belt can hit finished wood and dent or scuff it. Or even if you lean up against wood while reaching, your hammer head (or anything else hanging) is liable to dent something. The handle sticking out is still a bonk hazard but much less so than a steel hammer head. I was even scolded for having a metal belt buckle. Haha.

Since then my hammer head's been in the pouch, although I still reach for it on the loop occasionally.
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Re: What's in the Bag?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:01 pm

Yep,

the bane of our existence on the Ellison site were some of the other tradespeople and their total obliviousness when it came to working around delicate timber components. The electricians, in particular, with their lineman pliers hanging off of a chain, the tool swinging and wapping into posts and plaster when they rounded the corner. It didn't seem to matter how many times we made mention of the either, they just kept doing it. I dare say a lot of western tradespeople have a certain amount of self importance wrapped up in their tool bags festooned with tools. It;s a cultural thing. Western woodworker love a big joiner's bench with end vise, and a big ornate tool cabinet. Japanese tend to prefer a simple planing beam and simple wooden storage boxes. Western top end planes, with their peened dovetail soles, knurled adjusting knobs and CNC'd parts, compared to the top end Japanese plane which often looks extremely humble - just a block of wood with a chunk of iron stuck in it.

On Japanese job sites, given the increased prevalence of 2x4 type construction, you're starting to see more of the carpenters wearing the large western tool bags it would appear...
durbien
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Re: What's in the Bag?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:48 am

Chris Hall wrote:The general Japanese term for the carry bag is '道具袋', read dōgu-bukuro. It means 'tool bag', surprise-surprise.... This comes in a wide range of forms.
Thanks - I can hear that term being said in the video. I've also seen bags similar to the photo at Hida. I can't quite make out the name on those bags, and the website on the photo label doesn't open up for me. But those bags are awfully similar to generic pouches you can get here, less the chisel holders.
everythingsings wrote:My first week working on the job site of a Japanese building I had my hammer and other tools hanging off my belt and was thoroughly scolded. Anything swinging off your belt can hit finished wood and dent or scuff it. Or even if you lean up against wood while reaching, your hammer head (or anything else hanging) is liable to dent something. The handle sticking out is still a bonk hazard but much less so than a steel hammer head. I was even scolded for having a metal belt buckle. Haha.
Ah, no wonder the bags seem so tidy. That makes perfect sense in that context, thank you! Did you carry western tools in western bags, or was everything Japanese?

Now I wonder if that guy walking around the roof deck with the kataba sticking out of his belt (at roughly 3:18 of the Silky saw ad) was being shown as an example, i.e. "Don't be this guy"!

Do you think the use of gloves - and for that matter tabi vs. steel toed workboots - is related to this idea of keeping the wood clean? Or is it simply a matter of grip?
Chris Hall wrote:On Japanese job sites, given the increased prevalence of 2x4 type construction, you're starting to see more of the carpenters wearing the large western tool bags it would appear...
You mean somewhere on a Japanese Daiku message board there's the thread, "Check out my Bitchin' Oxy Bags"? :lol:

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