Water stone sharpening stations?
- Paul Atzenweiler
- Deshi
- Contact:
- Location: Kansas City, MO
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Re: Water stone sharpening stations?
Jon B my first pond is now a box as well. The bottom of this pond is also 1/2" and rift sawn so I will have to see how it stands up. Its still fun to use a project right away. I recently purchased a new set of chisels and will be making a box for them.
- Jon B
- Sweeper of Floors, Maker of Tea
- Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Re: Water stone sharpening stations?
Well I'm on to version two of my sharpening pond with a few improvements over my previous attempt. I used to spanish cedar that I milled to 7/8 thick. The thicker sides allowed me to increase the depth of the dado in the long sides that the short sides are let into. I also did a better job with the joinery, and made the joints on the tight side, getting a good interference fit between the side connections as well with the fit of the bottom. And I went with 1:10 wedges this time, per Chris's recommendation. The wedges look extra fat in the photos since I haven't cut them flush with the tenons yet, and I made them extra long in case I felt the need to disassemble things.
Initially after assembling I had a really solid water tight box, but after four days the sides began to cup noticeably, resulting in the joints opening slightly and now I have leaks
I'm going to keep using it for now, and see if it gets much worse... or hopefully stops, but I'm beginning to question the validity of making a box to hold water using wedged tenons, and can see how a box made with sliding dovetailed sides would have some big advantages. Namely the fact that when the sides start cupping on a box with wedged tenons, even when let into a dado as I did, the joints naturally open up. Whereas the same situation with cupping sides locked together with sliding dovetails should just further tighten the joints... or that's what I predict anyways.
I may be on to round three at some point here in the near future, and if I get there I'm going to give the sliding dovetails a try.
Initially after assembling I had a really solid water tight box, but after four days the sides began to cup noticeably, resulting in the joints opening slightly and now I have leaks
![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_e_sad.gif)
I'm going to keep using it for now, and see if it gets much worse... or hopefully stops, but I'm beginning to question the validity of making a box to hold water using wedged tenons, and can see how a box made with sliding dovetailed sides would have some big advantages. Namely the fact that when the sides start cupping on a box with wedged tenons, even when let into a dado as I did, the joints naturally open up. Whereas the same situation with cupping sides locked together with sliding dovetails should just further tighten the joints... or that's what I predict anyways.
I may be on to round three at some point here in the near future, and if I get there I'm going to give the sliding dovetails a try.
- Attachments
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- IMG_20160219_165507190.jpg (112.66 KiB) Viewed 11757 times
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- This joint was tight after initial assembly.
- IMG_20160223_093124913.jpg (92.42 KiB) Viewed 11757 times
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- IMG_20160223_093112893.jpg (98.52 KiB) Viewed 11757 times
- Brian
- Deshi
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Re: Water stone sharpening stations?
Jon, sorry to see that the box warped, it looks like otherwise quite nice.
I have some Spanish cedar and it warped more than any other wood I keep in the shop, I think it's probably best to find another species for this project. Possibly another cedar less prone to warpage.
I have some Spanish cedar and it warped more than any other wood I keep in the shop, I think it's probably best to find another species for this project. Possibly another cedar less prone to warpage.
- djwong
- Deshi
- Location: Cupertino, CA
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Re: Water stone sharpening stations?
Jon, really interesting experiments. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your results.
I once read a woodworker's blog post about recreating Frank Klausz's sharpening water pond. I'm sorry, but I cannot relocate the blog. His water pond similarly warped and developed leaks, when water was left in the pond a few days. If I remember correctly, the bottom actually expanded and pulled the nails out. He wrote that he since learned that Frank Klausz's does not leave water in the pond overnight.
I once read a woodworker's blog post about recreating Frank Klausz's sharpening water pond. I'm sorry, but I cannot relocate the blog. His water pond similarly warped and developed leaks, when water was left in the pond a few days. If I remember correctly, the bottom actually expanded and pulled the nails out. He wrote that he since learned that Frank Klausz's does not leave water in the pond overnight.
- Jon B
- Sweeper of Floors, Maker of Tea
- Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Re: Water stone sharpening stations?
Yeah I'm not particularly fond of Spanish Cedar. I recently built a pergola using SC and had leftover stock on hand which is what I used for the pond. It has a pleasant smell at first but after a while it's a bit overpowering. I appreciate your input on the movement of SC. I think if I make a third attempt that I may use white oak again.Brian wrote: I have some Spanish cedar and it warped more than any other wood I keep in the shop, I think it's probably best to find another species for this project. Possibly another cedar less prone to warpage.
I've been thinking about this as well. Although I had thought that the effect of saturating the wood and then allowing it to dry frequently would result in more frequent movement over time and would accelerate any tendency for the wood to crack/check. This is just my assumption, I don't know if that would be the actual result. But I figure it's kind of like wood that is outside and exposed to much more frequent and dramatic changes in moisture content, than wood kept indoors.djwong wrote:He wrote that he since learned that Frank Klausz's does not leave water in the pond overnight.
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
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Re: Water stone sharpening stations?
Quartersawn wood will eliminate cupping.
Joinery detailing could be improved...
Most joined Japanese soaking tubs employ through wedged mortise and tenon joints, so thinking that dovetails are going to be better may not be the answer you are hoping. Worth a look though in any event.
This waterstone hopper I made years back did not leak, regardless of how long water was left in it. I used a wedged sliding dovetail, however that does not mean that there aren't other good joinery solutions.
If you leave water in it long term, you will get problems with algae and other biologicals taking up residence. So, if your plan is to use the pond, then you would be well served to consider that issue. When full, it will be a little heavy, and if carried it would be easy to slosh water out, so perhaps accommodating a drain is something to look at? Also, the idea of using the same water for one stone after another is problematic from a sharpening perspective.
I also find Spanish Cedar gross to work with. Once you've had a taste of the dust in your mouth you'll know why.
Joinery detailing could be improved...
Most joined Japanese soaking tubs employ through wedged mortise and tenon joints, so thinking that dovetails are going to be better may not be the answer you are hoping. Worth a look though in any event.
This waterstone hopper I made years back did not leak, regardless of how long water was left in it. I used a wedged sliding dovetail, however that does not mean that there aren't other good joinery solutions.
If you leave water in it long term, you will get problems with algae and other biologicals taking up residence. So, if your plan is to use the pond, then you would be well served to consider that issue. When full, it will be a little heavy, and if carried it would be easy to slosh water out, so perhaps accommodating a drain is something to look at? Also, the idea of using the same water for one stone after another is problematic from a sharpening perspective.
I also find Spanish Cedar gross to work with. Once you've had a taste of the dust in your mouth you'll know why.
- Jon B
- Sweeper of Floors, Maker of Tea
- Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Re: Water stone sharpening stations?
Thanks for the feedback Chris. I'm glad to hear that soaking tubs are built with through wedged mortise and tenons. I really like the aesthetics of this type of joinery so I will keep trying to make some improvements.
Today any leaking was pretty negligible, which I was happy to see. As far as algae goes I don't think I'll have that problem since I do change the water as I progress through sharpening stones.
Both of my ponds so far have been rift sawn. If I attempt another I will try using truly quartersawn material. But even with quartersawn wood, isn't there still potential for the board to cup as only one side becomes saturated? Wouldn't the saturated side expand as the cells absorb moisture while the opposite side stays dry?
Today any leaking was pretty negligible, which I was happy to see. As far as algae goes I don't think I'll have that problem since I do change the water as I progress through sharpening stones.
Both of my ponds so far have been rift sawn. If I attempt another I will try using truly quartersawn material. But even with quartersawn wood, isn't there still potential for the board to cup as only one side becomes saturated? Wouldn't the saturated side expand as the cells absorb moisture while the opposite side stays dry?
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