My developing shop thread

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Chris Pyle
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Re: My developing shop thread

Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:38 pm

Brian wrote:Haha, I can imagine you are the most eager to receive the Kiyohisas.

Delicate can be good for certain operations, all depends I suppose. My old stock Kikuhiromaru are stocky.

Here's the teaser photos So sent to me of the Tsukis.

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I've never really thought about a 10 set of paring chisels.....until receiving these photos upon which my first thought was 'I should have ordered a 10 set'. LOL....so maybe...

I'll also take a few photos in the shop so you can see the size of them by comparison to other things in the shop.

Sorry to hijack.
Don't worry about hijacking, I think those look beautiful. Are those Assab K120 or did you do blue? As an aside, does Konobu do regular white steel?

The backs required minimal stock removal, but not just a brush on the polisher I'm afraid. I've only done one and ran a couple others across a finishing stone. The first one I fully prepped required a bit of flattening on my 1200 stone because the last .5-1mm was cupped a tiny bit. Certainly not a chore to clean up although I would've loved for them to be deadnuts out of the box.

I've received a couple parers as well and that rosewood is sexy. I think I'm going with boxwood for every handle from here on out, I just love the look and feel. Of course, I likely won't be ordering anymore chisels for a looooong time as I feel my elementary needs have been met x10.

I really like the Konobu's but as Chris said, they look delicate so I'll have to work them up from smaller projects to larger things and make sure they handle it without issue. Of course, I have smaller hands so these may fit the bill perfectly :)
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Brian
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Re: My developing shop thread

Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:27 pm

Thanks fellas. I appreciate the comments and insights.

For delicate I thought the same that it could be due to the fact that his specialty is in carving tools. Those masayoshi are wild, not for me, but wild none the less. I think it could be advantageous when it comes to paring chisels, I've trimmed down the sides of mortises and sometimes wished the Koyamaichi were a hair thinner.

Chris, I went for K120 figuring that a hair more keenness would be favorable to longevity. These are actually redundant in size for me but I wanted to compare them to my current parers before going wild and getting a full set. The current set is Blue 2 and by Koyamaichi, they hold up well around 30-32 degrees and so I wanted to see if I can use these at a lower angle with success. I've lowered the the koyamaichi to 29~ but they tend to be a little chippy at that angle. I will keep both, the koyamaichi parers were what really won me over to Japanese tools, so they mean a lot to me even if they're outperformed by Konobu.

I dont think he does white 1, but I could certainly be incorrect about that. He must have a massive stockpile of K120.

I'm with you on the gumi/boxwood handles, I have a couple kikuhiromaru in boxwood and I was won over by it....still I cannot seem to resist exotics for paring chisels, hehe :D
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Chris Pyle
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Re: My developing shop thread

Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:25 pm

Chris H,

How many lag screws did you use on your Lee Valley lumber racks? As I said, I've nearly duplicated your work and I want to make sure what I purchased was sufficient. I only bought them for the top and bottoms which will suffice for now but I'm wondering if it'll work for a heavily loaded rack.

Pics will be forthcoming, mine isn't as cleanly done but it'll hold sticks of wood and give me back a lot of floor space, as you alluded.
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Chris Hall
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Re: My developing shop thread

Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:46 pm

Chris P,

I avoid the usual lag screws, as they are weak sauce. I've grown to prefer using GRK timber screws for stuff like this. I fastened the rack in place with three screws per vertical. They don't need to be massively strong fasteners, as most of the load is straight down, but you will likely need 3/8" washers under the screw heads.
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Chris Pyle
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Re: My developing shop thread

Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:37 pm

Finally finished the lumber rack this morning before work. Didn't have enough ply to run to the top but I only purchased the 24" rack straps so they still fit. Not nearly as well done as Chris' but I'm happy to have reclaimed so much floor space.

The next step is to build some clamp racks for that front.

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Will post some more about my tool teardown/updates as I continue to plod along.

One thing I'm considering is building a raised floor in one of the corners of my shop. Currently it's poured concrete and I know it's a short fall to chipped edges on all of my hand tools. There is a local guy selling off bowling alley strips in 8'x4' sections that are 2.5" thick. I'm thinking about buying a few and ripping them down, then resawing them in half or thirds, then screwing them into a pressure-treated sill that'll be laid on the ground. I was thinking I'd rip the pressure treated lumber down to 2x2, as it wouldn't need to be any higher than that.

Does anyone have a suggestion regarding this? If you notice my garage pictures, I have concrete floors and the concrete walls rise up between 24-40" in some areas. I'd love some input/guidance on how to go about making a section more hand tool friendly.
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Re: My developing shop thread

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:39 pm

Hi Chris,

Bowling alley floors in the shop sounds sweet.. But labor intensive!

My company remodels a lot of basements, and to install floors over concrete we usually use a 'dimple mat' (google: Delta-FL by Cosella-Dorken) under a plywood subfloor rather than PT sleepers. It's a good vapor barrier, saves considerable height, goes down fast, and you don't have to fasten anything down to the concrete if the floor on top is heavy and stable. If you want to float the floor like that you do need to hold it together to keep the sheets from shifting laterally. A great assembly would be dimple mat, then two layers of 3/4" plywood glued and screwed, seams staggered, with the two layers installed at right angles to each other. We've tried 1/2" plywood, but the stuff we get around here is all potato-chippy and difficult to work with. You can get great insulation on the floor with some polyisocyanurate foam board on top of the dimple mat, under the ply.

You could also try a click together system like DRIcore- I haven't used it, but it looks ok. Not sure how rigid it is, but it says it's rated for 4000 lbs/sq. ft.

In any case, I'd recommend a capillary break (an air gap) plus some kind of vapor barrier between the concrete and subfloor. And if you think you might do the whole floor at some point in the future, plan ahead now and put sections of your floor assembly underneath anything heavy or permanent that you won't want to move later.

I'm lovin' the shop build, keep it coming. I'm still dreaming of building my own someday...

-Matt
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Chris Pyle
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Re: My developing shop thread

Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:20 pm

Matt J wrote:Hi Chris,

Bowling alley floors in the shop sounds sweet.. But labor intensive!

My company remodels a lot of basements, and to install floors over concrete we usually use a 'dimple mat' (google: Delta-FL by Cosella-Dorken) under a plywood subfloor rather than PT sleepers. It's a good vapor barrier, saves considerable height, goes down fast, and you don't have to fasten anything down to the concrete if the floor on top is heavy and stable. If you want to float the floor like that you do need to hold it together to keep the sheets from shifting laterally. A great assembly would be dimple mat, then two layers of 3/4" plywood glued and screwed, seams staggered, with the two layers installed at right angles to each other. We've tried 1/2" plywood, but the stuff we get around here is all potato-chippy and difficult to work with. You can get great insulation on the floor with some polyisocyanurate foam board on top of the dimple mat, under the ply.

You could also try a click together system like DRIcore- I haven't used it, but it looks ok. Not sure how rigid it is, but it says it's rated for 4000 lbs/sq. ft.

In any case, I'd recommend a capillary break (an air gap) plus some kind of vapor barrier between the concrete and subfloor. And if you think you might do the whole floor at some point in the future, plan ahead now and put sections of your floor assembly underneath anything heavy or permanent that you won't want to move later.

I'm lovin' the shop build, keep it coming. I'm still dreaming of building my own someday...

-Matt

Thanks Matt, I appreciate the detailed response.

I had found a couple DIY articles that were similar to what you said except they suggested sleepers. I won't be doing the whole garage this way but I'd like to have a nice area, maybe 8 x 8 or 12 x 8 where all of my hand tools could stay. The rest of the floors will remain unadulterated, dirty-ass concrete. If I get dust collection set up, then I may purchase some horse stall mats to lay around the shop as I greatly dislike concrete floors, :). Such a complainer, I am.

The articles I found were:

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/install-fa ... 65393.html

http://forums.finehomebuilding.com/brea ... rage-floor

You mention an air gap and a vapor barrier, the latter would be taken care of by the 'dimple mat' but how would you propose building an air gap in? Perhaps some thin sleepers beneath the two sheets of ply but on top of the polyisocyanurate? And by thin, I mean some 1x2 layed flat?

As I understand it, the delicious basement floor sandwich would be: concrete floor, dimple mat, polyisocyanurate, two layers of 3/4 ply (glued and screwed perpendicular to one another), then I'm guessing I could get a nailgun and nail the bowling alley strips straight down to the sub? Am I understanding this correctly?
Matt J
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Re: My developing shop thread

Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:28 pm

Hi Chris,

The great thing about the dimple mat is that it provides the air gap, and is easily sealed to provide a continuous vapor barrier. But if you really want to use the bowling alley strips, then PT sleepers are the way to go. I was just suggesting an easy alternative with the dimple mat, etc.

If you use sleepers, the vapor barrier is kinda hard to do. You want to prevent the underside of the flooring from getting moldy- in a basement you're usually worried about groundwater and moisture from the soil rising through the concrete, so when new slabs are poured we put poly sheeting under the slab, we use dimple mats in retrofits, and use perimeter drainage and sump pumps as necessary. For a slab on grade, you're mostly worried about condensation since the concrete will often be colder than ambient temp and will often be below the dewpoint (there's also moisture coming up from the soil but that should be less of a concern than in a basement). The air gap hopefully 'decouples' the wood from the concrete enough that it stays warmer, and air circulation hopefully dilutes the moisture enough to keep RH down and mold at bay. If you just lay poly on top of the concrete it will still get cold and moisture can still condense on the top side of the poly. The trick would be to put the vapor barrier over the sleepers, in continuous contact with the bowling alley strips. It begs for something rigid. Painting the underside of the wood might be a good alternative.

But as I write I realize I'm probably making way too big a deal of this- I doubt you'd have a problem in your lifetime with no VB for a work shop floor in your climate. Finished basements are a bigger deal because they are within the conditioned space of the house and moisture problems there can affect the health of the occupants.

The basement floor sandwich you describe would be bomber, and you've got it right. I should add that the vapor barrier should be continuous up the walls and tie into the air barrier above grade. We also include radon mitigation, or at least provisions for adding a system in the future.

I'm not a big fan of either of the articles you linked- The SF Gate guy's assembly is just BAD and is the kind of shit I might pull out of a moldy 15 year old renovation that is making the owners sick (I'd never put fiberglass in a floor like that). The Breaktime discussion guys aren't very helpful-#6 gives the best advice but doesn't explain why. Nobody specifically mentions a vapor barrier. The basic idea of using sleepers to put a floor over concrete is sound, but other details are important, and vary from one situation to another.

-MJ
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Chris Pyle
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Re: My developing shop thread

Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:15 pm

Thanks Matt, I appreciate the response and explanations. Let me re-read your response and digest it some more and post my working plan to move forward with this.
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Brian
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Re: My developing shop thread

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:34 am

Prepping the Tsuki's. Done entirely by hand, btw. I dont do that often, infact I generally avoid it on bevel setting, but these steep bevels are fairly easy to work by hand.
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These chisels are serious! I like the handle shape as well, nice to grip.

Interesting that the bench chisels seem fairly delicately proportioned, but these are hefty! Here they are by comparison.
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I have no qualms with leaning in on these when cuttng bigger joinery.

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