They are still coming. A dribs and drabs sort of affair..Did you make the detailed drawings available already (and I just missed it), or are they still coming?
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- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
- charlie
- Sweeper of Floors, Maker of Tea
- Location: Mequon, WI
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
As it turns out, connecting the cap is the crux of the puzzle, and I explored several arrangements before settling upon a solution, including sliding dovetails of various forms and hidden dovetail keys in various arrangements. The way in which the handle is configured is something of a product of a long evolution and is intimately related to the cap and how the cap is attached to the box.
First off, the handles are the means by which the box is likely to be lifted, and are subject to loading in two directions - vertically, and possibly outwards at times. to deal with the vertical lifting load, the strongest joinery solution is to attach the handle to the box's end board with a long rebate of some sort. However, since the handle is shaped with a U-shaped cutout on its lower edge, the rebate can only begin above the height of that cutout. So, the rebate fairly quickly became a tongue. The end board of the box is only 0.5" thick, so the position of the groove on the outside face of the board to accommodate the handle's tongue had to be carefully considered. Ideally the tongue would be somewhere in the range of 1/3~1/2 f the thickness of the end wall of the box, or in the range of 0.1875"~0.25".
While thinking about the placement of the tongue and groove, one also needs to think of a way of strengthening the handle against any potential outward or torsional load when the box is lifted. To counteract such a load, the solution is to place some sort of tenon on the ends of the handle, tenons which engage the long walls of the box. At first I only considered stub tenons, however I knew that the longer the tenon, the stronger it is going to be. I also knew that the handle's tenon had to fit, whether it was through or stub, in and around the existing configuration of tenons on the end boards (and corresponding mortises on the long side boards), and there happen to be two such tenons on the upper end of that board right where the handle was located.
I hit upon the arrangement of fitting the handle tenons in behind and kitty-corner to the two end board tenons. By having the handle's groove extended, they could add strength as well, and by making the location of the tongue and groove coincide with the existing upper tenon I could somewhat disguise its location. I also thought the arrangement looked aesthetically pleasing. The tongue and groove is the primary component in giving strength to the join of handle to the box, and the location of the handle's tongue can't help but be close in position to the end board's tenons. The tongue needs to be as wide, long, and tall as possible. The solution I came up with was to nestle that handle tongue in alongside the upper tenon on the end board.
HOWEVER, that was then and this is now, and having received this question from Charlie, it got me to walk through the mental thought processes which got me to the solution seen in the above picture. That was great, since walking back through also led me to see things in a slightly new light, and I realized that there is an even better option for this tongue and groove connection. I have now reconfigured the tongue to be stopped in its groove, rather than carried through, and lowered the tongue at the same time, all of which allows for a full size upper tenon on the end board:
This simplified the cut out at the end of the handle, as there now only needs to be a single tenon. The stopped groove is more difficult to cut out than the through version, however this is a minor issue to solve with a router, which is how I will cut that groove.
One point of note that should be borne in mind: the end boards of the box carcase are 1/8" (3mm) taller than the long side boards of the carcase.
Another point: the tenons can be glued, or wedged. I plan to wedge mine, and trim them flush.
Here's a close up of the reconfigured handle end, which I have colored in a lighter wood to make the dimensions easier to see:
Basically, the stick is 2.375" tall by 1.25" thick, and as long as you need it to be for your box.
With the handle back in place, here is how the end tenon cluster looks:
Design is an interesting process and I appreciate the questions about 'why' it is the way it is since it gives me the opportunity to revisit the issue. In the case of the handle, I spent most of my attention trying to solve the attachment of the cap to the handle and end board, and other aspects of the design in that area did not receive as much consideration as they could have. I feel that with today's slight change, the connection looks tidier and the stopped tongue and groove retains greater strength in the end board.
Re: Views
The Japanese tool box is a simple affair with an attractive connection of parts at the end, with the carcase sides overlapping and the handles tucked in under the cap. Trouble is, the portion of the box with the handle and cap coming together is most tricky to resolve without metal connectors. Throw some screws or nails in there and it is quite straightforward - probably why you always see these boxes nailed or screwed together. Knowing that this box was potentially going to carry a fair amount of weight, and that it might even get stepped on or roughly handled at times (hopefully not by me!) led me to consider quite a few different joinery arrangements along the way.charlie wrote:Can you say something about the slot on the upper outside of the end panel and the corresponding part of the handle that meet and form the "double" tenon on the outside? Aside from creating some interesting woodwork, are these meant to tie these two parts together?
As it turns out, connecting the cap is the crux of the puzzle, and I explored several arrangements before settling upon a solution, including sliding dovetails of various forms and hidden dovetail keys in various arrangements. The way in which the handle is configured is something of a product of a long evolution and is intimately related to the cap and how the cap is attached to the box.
First off, the handles are the means by which the box is likely to be lifted, and are subject to loading in two directions - vertically, and possibly outwards at times. to deal with the vertical lifting load, the strongest joinery solution is to attach the handle to the box's end board with a long rebate of some sort. However, since the handle is shaped with a U-shaped cutout on its lower edge, the rebate can only begin above the height of that cutout. So, the rebate fairly quickly became a tongue. The end board of the box is only 0.5" thick, so the position of the groove on the outside face of the board to accommodate the handle's tongue had to be carefully considered. Ideally the tongue would be somewhere in the range of 1/3~1/2 f the thickness of the end wall of the box, or in the range of 0.1875"~0.25".
While thinking about the placement of the tongue and groove, one also needs to think of a way of strengthening the handle against any potential outward or torsional load when the box is lifted. To counteract such a load, the solution is to place some sort of tenon on the ends of the handle, tenons which engage the long walls of the box. At first I only considered stub tenons, however I knew that the longer the tenon, the stronger it is going to be. I also knew that the handle's tenon had to fit, whether it was through or stub, in and around the existing configuration of tenons on the end boards (and corresponding mortises on the long side boards), and there happen to be two such tenons on the upper end of that board right where the handle was located.
I hit upon the arrangement of fitting the handle tenons in behind and kitty-corner to the two end board tenons. By having the handle's groove extended, they could add strength as well, and by making the location of the tongue and groove coincide with the existing upper tenon I could somewhat disguise its location. I also thought the arrangement looked aesthetically pleasing. The tongue and groove is the primary component in giving strength to the join of handle to the box, and the location of the handle's tongue can't help but be close in position to the end board's tenons. The tongue needs to be as wide, long, and tall as possible. The solution I came up with was to nestle that handle tongue in alongside the upper tenon on the end board.
HOWEVER, that was then and this is now, and having received this question from Charlie, it got me to walk through the mental thought processes which got me to the solution seen in the above picture. That was great, since walking back through also led me to see things in a slightly new light, and I realized that there is an even better option for this tongue and groove connection. I have now reconfigured the tongue to be stopped in its groove, rather than carried through, and lowered the tongue at the same time, all of which allows for a full size upper tenon on the end board:
This simplified the cut out at the end of the handle, as there now only needs to be a single tenon. The stopped groove is more difficult to cut out than the through version, however this is a minor issue to solve with a router, which is how I will cut that groove.
One point of note that should be borne in mind: the end boards of the box carcase are 1/8" (3mm) taller than the long side boards of the carcase.
Another point: the tenons can be glued, or wedged. I plan to wedge mine, and trim them flush.
Here's a close up of the reconfigured handle end, which I have colored in a lighter wood to make the dimensions easier to see:
Basically, the stick is 2.375" tall by 1.25" thick, and as long as you need it to be for your box.
With the handle back in place, here is how the end tenon cluster looks:
Design is an interesting process and I appreciate the questions about 'why' it is the way it is since it gives me the opportunity to revisit the issue. In the case of the handle, I spent most of my attention trying to solve the attachment of the cap to the handle and end board, and other aspects of the design in that area did not receive as much consideration as they could have. I feel that with today's slight change, the connection looks tidier and the stopped tongue and groove retains greater strength in the end board.
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ti
Post
Re: Views
Without a router, would you still recommend the stopped groove, or should one stick with your original solution?
Also, changing the subject a bit, I've been wondering about the construction of the trays. Are you thinking that these will be nailed together, or will they employ some tricky joinery? How about the tray bottom -- will it sit in grooves in the sides, or be attached directly to the bottom of the tray side pieces?
Also, changing the subject a bit, I've been wondering about the construction of the trays. Are you thinking that these will be nailed together, or will they employ some tricky joinery? How about the tray bottom -- will it sit in grooves in the sides, or be attached directly to the bottom of the tray side pieces?
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Or, use a grooving plane and make the tongue as I had it configured in the 'Mark 1' version. Or, if either joinery option is troublesome to execute, you could forgo the tongue and groove altogether and simply glue/screw the handle and end board together.
Tray bottom - I would recommend dadoing the floor panel in, however if space/time was tight you could nail it directly to the bottom as the Japanese do.
Re: Views
Well, it depends. If you have a old witch's tooth (an un-powered router) you could chop and pare your way there:timoore wrote:Without a router, would you still recommend the stopped groove, or should one stick with your original solution?
Or, use a grooving plane and make the tongue as I had it configured in the 'Mark 1' version. Or, if either joinery option is troublesome to execute, you could forgo the tongue and groove altogether and simply glue/screw the handle and end board together.
Well, there are lots of options, and I leave that up to the maker - some, I imagine, will not even have trays in theirs. Nail yours together if you like, or use finger joints, dovetails, glued tongue and groove, glued-in feather splines, etc., etc. You could join them in the same manner as the carcase, leaving the long sides to run long. I will be dovetailing mine in some manner. There are several options just with dovetails.timoore wrote:Also, changing the subject a bit, I've been wondering about the construction of the trays. Are you thinking that these will be nailed together, or will they employ some tricky joinery? How about the tray bottom -- will it sit in grooves in the sides, or be attached directly to the bottom of the tray side pieces?
Tray bottom - I would recommend dadoing the floor panel in, however if space/time was tight you could nail it directly to the bottom as the Japanese do.
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Re: Views
Some more detail views of the corner joints - first the end boards and their tenons:
Lower end tenon pair and dado for floor:
Top edge:
Outside face:
Then the long side boards:
Outside face:
Now, your box might not be exactly as tall as mine, at 9.625", so you'll have to modify the tenon spacing slightly. Try to keep the outer pairs of tenons as they are drawn and make your dimensional changes to the central tenon and the space between the central tenon and the outboard tenons pairs. Try to keep your floor panel dado at the same position as i have located it and the same goes for the handle dado in the end panels.
If there are other views you'd like to see, or certain dimensions, let me know.
Lower end tenon pair and dado for floor:
Top edge:
Outside face:
Then the long side boards:
Outside face:
Now, your box might not be exactly as tall as mine, at 9.625", so you'll have to modify the tenon spacing slightly. Try to keep the outer pairs of tenons as they are drawn and make your dimensional changes to the central tenon and the space between the central tenon and the outboard tenons pairs. Try to keep your floor panel dado at the same position as i have located it and the same goes for the handle dado in the end panels.
If there are other views you'd like to see, or certain dimensions, let me know.
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Re: Views
Here are the details on the partitions:
Remember, overall width and length will vary depending upon your tool box's overall proportions. The notch on the top edge is for the drop-in tray - if your box lacks such a tray, then omit those notches. Then partition ends are housed 1/8" into the carcase sides, and the lower edge of the partition is housed in a 1/16" deep dado in the floor panel, as mentioned in another post.
The tenon is shouldered 1/16" on each side, for a total width of 0.375".
Remember, overall width and length will vary depending upon your tool box's overall proportions. The notch on the top edge is for the drop-in tray - if your box lacks such a tray, then omit those notches. Then partition ends are housed 1/8" into the carcase sides, and the lower edge of the partition is housed in a 1/16" deep dado in the floor panel, as mentioned in another post.
The tenon is shouldered 1/16" on each side, for a total width of 0.375".
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Re: Views
Though it is partly shown in an above picture, here is some more detail for the cap and it's 5 mortises:
Note that the 0.75" width for the key mortises is the measurement for an un-flared key. Depending upon the dimensions you use for your cap, the flare might be in the range of 3/64"~1/16" on each side.
Note that the 0.75" width for the key mortises is the measurement for an un-flared key. Depending upon the dimensions you use for your cap, the flare might be in the range of 3/64"~1/16" on each side.
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