I'm not sure if everyone in the group has understood me correctly to this point, but, to make clear, I've provided an overview of the project and made an exploration of various configurations of box internals. I'm mentioned that you need to know what is going in your box before you can really know what size to make it, and since everyone has different tools, their boxes are likely to be varied - heck, maybe you don't even want to put tools in this box. Store a teddy bear in there - the sky is the limit.
I'm pretty close with the detailing on my box now, and have commenced rough milling of the parts. I've also provided details of the joinery and given measurements. The idea here, and perhaps it wasn't explicitly stated, is that I am staying a step ahead of you all and trying to walk you through the project. I drew my box and asked you all to work out what dimensions were going to be necessary for your own project. Then I obtained some wood, made a few suggestions about materials, and commenced milling in a series of widely-spaced stages. I am looking now for you to also obtain materials and commence rough milling - and a couple of members have indeed done that. I figured everyone was on the same page, but an email from a member today suggested to me that i was making an assumption. so, i'll try to be as clear as i can, and if you're ever left wondering about what next steps are, please post up or email me directly.
Now, on to the joinery. i had videotaped about an hour of layout work - hardly exciting, but in the end the video quality and sound was inadequate so that part isn't happening quite yet. I'll be buying a new video camera and microphone this week so soon enough you will have video clips available.
I lay out using a 0.5mm mechanical pencil. I prefer the type with a retractable tip instead of the little fixed metal tube tips. I establish a central axis on the board and lay out to either side from there. I use a try square to extend lines across the faces of the board, always referencing the square off of one edge. To lay out the mortise and tenon side wall lines, i use a combination square and layout out on all four boards, one side line at a time. When done, i use a sharpie marking pen to clearly indicate which side of a line is to be cut and which is not. Then I lay out the dadoes for the floor panel and the handle.
When all of that is done, I have a stack of boards which look like this:
Before proceeding, it is important to lay a pair of connecting boards off against one another to double check that the mortises, tenons, and dadoes are all in logical arrangement:
A little closer look:
Layout on the four carcase boards is complete, so it seemed like time to do a bit of cutting.
Getting rolling - dadoes, mortises and tenons
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Re: Getting rolling - dadoes, mortises and tenons
There are various ways to swing the cat here, but i decided to cut the dadoes first, using a small router with edge guide. The first dadoes were 0.375" wide. You might be tempted to chuck up a 0.375" router bit and plow out the groove in one go, but I prefer to use an undersize bit (8mm in this case) and remove most of the groove first, then fine tune the router edge guide until I have the groove cut to the correct width, depth, and position. It takes longer but the result tends to be more certain and cleanly cut.
Here's the first rough cut:
The dado on these end boards can be run right through, but I prefer to just go past the line and keep as much of the router on the wood as I can.
Some adjustments and further cuts later, I am at my target width for the dado:
Here's the target depth for this dado - half the thickness of the 0.5" board:
One minor detail - the end boards receive the floor panel end grain ends - there is very little seasonal movement to be expected along that grain direction, so the floor panel can be fitted a little shallower and with leas clearance space. While the side boards have a 0.25" dado depth, and the boards will insert to a depth of 0.1875", leaving 1/16" room on each side for the board to swell, the end boards have a dado of 0.21875" (7/32") for the same 0.1875" (3/16") depth of floor panel insertion, leaving 1/32" space on each end of the board to accommodate movement.
Once the routing was done, I used a paring block and a chisel to clean up the ends of the grooves:
Completed:
And then two boards were done:
So, the floor panel dadoes complete, I then processed the dadoes for the end handles. These dadoes, which are stopped, are 0.25" deep and 0.5" wide.
And then all four boards were complete for the dadoing work:
That was, er, groovy!
I decided to keep going and used the hollow chisel mortiser and a 3/8" bit to rough cut the mortises in the side panels:
The tenons are 0.375" wide and 0.5" tall - when wedged 1/16" on each side, the finished appearance will be a square 0.5" x 0.5" tenon.
Next time, I'll tackle those tenons on the end boards.
if you have any questions about any of the above steps, let me know. And I'll be looking to see a few folks get their boards down to dimension and start in on some layout and cutting over the next week.
Here's the first rough cut:
The dado on these end boards can be run right through, but I prefer to just go past the line and keep as much of the router on the wood as I can.
Some adjustments and further cuts later, I am at my target width for the dado:
Here's the target depth for this dado - half the thickness of the 0.5" board:
One minor detail - the end boards receive the floor panel end grain ends - there is very little seasonal movement to be expected along that grain direction, so the floor panel can be fitted a little shallower and with leas clearance space. While the side boards have a 0.25" dado depth, and the boards will insert to a depth of 0.1875", leaving 1/16" room on each side for the board to swell, the end boards have a dado of 0.21875" (7/32") for the same 0.1875" (3/16") depth of floor panel insertion, leaving 1/32" space on each end of the board to accommodate movement.
Once the routing was done, I used a paring block and a chisel to clean up the ends of the grooves:
Completed:
And then two boards were done:
So, the floor panel dadoes complete, I then processed the dadoes for the end handles. These dadoes, which are stopped, are 0.25" deep and 0.5" wide.
And then all four boards were complete for the dadoing work:
That was, er, groovy!
I decided to keep going and used the hollow chisel mortiser and a 3/8" bit to rough cut the mortises in the side panels:
The tenons are 0.375" wide and 0.5" tall - when wedged 1/16" on each side, the finished appearance will be a square 0.5" x 0.5" tenon.
Next time, I'll tackle those tenons on the end boards.
if you have any questions about any of the above steps, let me know. And I'll be looking to see a few folks get their boards down to dimension and start in on some layout and cutting over the next week.
- charlie
- Sweeper of Floors, Maker of Tea
- Location: Mequon, WI
Post
Re: Getting rolling - dadoes, mortises and tenons
Chris,
FYI, the drawings, especially the exploded views, are very helpful and your progress photos are clear as well.
Not to dampen your enthusiasm, but I don't miss the videos, yet.
I'm a bit behind at this point, partly because I'm using hand tools and partly because I had to start with flattening stones and then sharpening plane irons.
I'm "making boards" at this point and will start dadoeing and mortising asap.
PS
You mentioned applying some tung oil. Do Japanese carpenters typically apply finish to their toolboxes?
FYI, the drawings, especially the exploded views, are very helpful and your progress photos are clear as well.
Not to dampen your enthusiasm, but I don't miss the videos, yet.
I'm a bit behind at this point, partly because I'm using hand tools and partly because I had to start with flattening stones and then sharpening plane irons.
I'm "making boards" at this point and will start dadoeing and mortising asap.
PS
You mentioned applying some tung oil. Do Japanese carpenters typically apply finish to their toolboxes?
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Depending upon which material you are using for your toolbox, you can decide what to do about finish. My toolbox is meant to be for site use, so their is a chance it might be exposed to a spot of rain once in while, so having a good coat of Tung Oil makes sense from that perspective. If I was making my box out of Yellow Cedar, then I would hand plane it only.
Re: Getting rolling - dadoes, mortises and tenons
Well, the vast majority of the toolboxes are softwood, and the only finish applied is by hand plane. If you look though in the thread on Japanese toolboxes (http://www.thecarpentryway.com/Carpentr ... f=26&t=112) you will note that the box in the Takenaka tool museum appears to have some vestigal stain or lacquer present.You mentioned applying some tung oil. Do Japanese carpenters typically apply finish to their toolboxes?
Depending upon which material you are using for your toolbox, you can decide what to do about finish. My toolbox is meant to be for site use, so their is a chance it might be exposed to a spot of rain once in while, so having a good coat of Tung Oil makes sense from that perspective. If I was making my box out of Yellow Cedar, then I would hand plane it only.
-
ti
Post
Re: Getting rolling - dadoes, mortises and tenons
I would lobby for seeing some of the joints (for example, 1 mortise / tenon pair) done entirely by hand, if that's feasible. I'm somewhat intimidated at the thought of doing the sliding dovetail entirely by hand!
-
ti
Post
Also, is your "paring block" a machinist's 3-4-5 block, or something sold specifically as a paring block?
Re: Getting rolling - dadoes, mortises and tenons
Is the mortise cut to .5" wide or .375"? Your dimensioned drawing in the Views thread makes it look like .375", but now I'm not sure.Chris Hall wrote:
The tenons are 0.375" wide and 0.5" tall - when wedged 1/16" on each side, the finished appearance will be a square 0.5" x 0.5" tenon.
Also, is your "paring block" a machinist's 3-4-5 block, or something sold specifically as a paring block?
- Charles
- Lurker
- Location: Hiroshima Japan
Post
Spent the last few days flattening stones and sharpening chisels and plane blades .It's about 8 degrees C which just adds to the fun ; ) my workspace is outside .... no power tools where I am at so will give this a project a go by hand .... any way glad to see I'm not alone in this .
@ Chris..... is that a bit of water applied to the board before you make the cut with the chisel ?
I look forward to videos in the future but at the moment the lack of video is not a hinderance ... your drawings and writing style are very clear ....
Re: Getting rolling - dadoes, mortises and tenons
Same here Charlie ,charlie wrote:Chris,
FYI, the drawings, especially the exploded views, are very helpful and your progress photos are clear as well.
Not to dampen your enthusiasm, but I don't miss the videos, yet.
I'm a bit behind at this point, partly because I'm using hand tools and partly because I had to start with flattening stones and then sharpening plane irons.
I'm "making boards" at this point and will start dadoeing and mortising asap.
PS
You mentioned applying some tung oil. Do Japanese carpenters typically apply finish to their toolboxes?
Spent the last few days flattening stones and sharpening chisels and plane blades .It's about 8 degrees C which just adds to the fun ; ) my workspace is outside .... no power tools where I am at so will give this a project a go by hand .... any way glad to see I'm not alone in this .
@ Chris..... is that a bit of water applied to the board before you make the cut with the chisel ?
I look forward to videos in the future but at the moment the lack of video is not a hinderance ... your drawings and writing style are very clear ....
- Charles
- Lurker
- Location: Hiroshima Japan
Post
and the tools that I have on hand ....
I would be interested in how you decide to tackle this ... or if anyone else cares to comment on how they would make the sliding dovetail using only hand tools ..... this is where a video would be great Chris
Re: Getting rolling - dadoes, mortises and tenons
The sliding dovetail had the same effect on me .... I choose my materials based on the fact that this box will be made using only hand tools ....timoore wrote:I would lobby for seeing some of the joints (for example, 1 mortise / tenon pair) done entirely by hand, if that's feasible. I'm somewhat intimidated at the thought of doing the sliding dovetail entirely by hand!
and the tools that I have on hand ....
I would be interested in how you decide to tackle this ... or if anyone else cares to comment on how they would make the sliding dovetail using only hand tools ..... this is where a video would be great Chris
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
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Sc
Post
Re: Getting rolling - dadoes, mortises and tenons
Chris,
If you didn't have access to a mortiser, what would be your alternative tool to rough-out the mortises? In the past I have done them with an auger bit followed with chisel work, but I thought I might try the router for this project. I recall you used the router when cutting the mortises for the mix and match project as you felt the mortiser was not as presise. When you use the router to rough-out mortises, what is your typical approach? Your insights are appreciated.
Schuyler
If you didn't have access to a mortiser, what would be your alternative tool to rough-out the mortises? In the past I have done them with an auger bit followed with chisel work, but I thought I might try the router for this project. I recall you used the router when cutting the mortises for the mix and match project as you felt the mortiser was not as presise. When you use the router to rough-out mortises, what is your typical approach? Your insights are appreciated.
Schuyler
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Re: Getting rolling - dadoes, mortises and tenons
Tim wrote,
For cutting the mortises by hand, one could use an electric drill or drill press or brace and remove most of the material in the mortise then clean up by chisel. Or you could chop them out entirely. I'll show that method in a follow-up posting.
As for the sliding dovetail, I rarely choose to do those by hand. I think the router does by far the cleanest and most accurate work in that regard. That said, if you want to do it by hand, there are a couple of ways to deal with it:
1) use a azebiki saw or crosscut saw with a limiting fence to cut the sloping walls of the dovetail mortise. Kerf out the middle of the mortise and then use a chisel to remove most of the waste. Then use a witch's tooth (manual router plane) to clean the bottom of the groove. the use either a dovetail routing plane to trim the sidewalls clean or use a beveled edge paring guide to chisel the sidewall clean.
2) use a Forstener bit in a brace (if such a thing can be found) to hog out most of the mortise material, then use either chiseling and paring, or a dovetail plane to process the sidewall cuts, and a witch's tooth for the bottom of the groove.
If you don't have a witch's tooth at a minimum you will not obtain good results. There are several versions of dovetail plane out there on the market, and I would suggest starting your shopping soon if you lack either of those tools. Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen both sell decent-looking witch's tooth planes. Personally, I'll stick to the router.
Finally, if that all looks too daunting, you can simply nail the batten in place, clenching the nails on the backside, or do a simple tongue and groove connection and then nail. You could also use screws, plugged.
The mortise is cut to 0.375" wide, and then will have the opening flared toward the outside. i'll show that step soon enough, but for now, rough cut to 0.375" wide and 0.5" tall, except for the central mortise which is quite a bit taller."Is the mortise cut to .5" wide or .375"?
It is a machinist's 1-2-3 block - in inches.Also, is your "paring block" a machinist's 3-4-5 block
I would lobby for seeing some of the joints (for example, 1 mortise / tenon pair) done entirely by hand, if that's feasible
Sure no problem. These are fairly small mortises, and given that they are to be flared so that the tenons can be wedged inside them, the initial rough cutting to 0.375" was fine to do with a mortiser. If I were to use a router to do the same cuts, i would use a bit no larger than 1/2 of the smallest dimension - for a 0.375" x 0.5" mortise, I would use a 0.1875" bit, likely a solid carbide spiral. I would use an edge guide running off the end grain of the long boards, and would probably hog out most of the mortise waste with a drill before routing. Routers work best when they are trimming, not hogging.If you didn't have access to a mortiser, what would be your alternative tool to rough-out the mortises? In the past I have done them with an auger bit followed with chisel work, but I thought I might try the router for this project. I recall you used the router when cutting the mortises for the mix and match project as you felt the mortiser was not as precise. When you use the router to rough-out mortises, what is your typical approach? Your insights are appreciated.
For cutting the mortises by hand, one could use an electric drill or drill press or brace and remove most of the material in the mortise then clean up by chisel. Or you could chop them out entirely. I'll show that method in a follow-up posting.
As for the sliding dovetail, I rarely choose to do those by hand. I think the router does by far the cleanest and most accurate work in that regard. That said, if you want to do it by hand, there are a couple of ways to deal with it:
1) use a azebiki saw or crosscut saw with a limiting fence to cut the sloping walls of the dovetail mortise. Kerf out the middle of the mortise and then use a chisel to remove most of the waste. Then use a witch's tooth (manual router plane) to clean the bottom of the groove. the use either a dovetail routing plane to trim the sidewalls clean or use a beveled edge paring guide to chisel the sidewall clean.
2) use a Forstener bit in a brace (if such a thing can be found) to hog out most of the mortise material, then use either chiseling and paring, or a dovetail plane to process the sidewall cuts, and a witch's tooth for the bottom of the groove.
If you don't have a witch's tooth at a minimum you will not obtain good results. There are several versions of dovetail plane out there on the market, and I would suggest starting your shopping soon if you lack either of those tools. Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen both sell decent-looking witch's tooth planes. Personally, I'll stick to the router.
Finally, if that all looks too daunting, you can simply nail the batten in place, clenching the nails on the backside, or do a simple tongue and groove connection and then nail. You could also use screws, plugged.
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