Makin' Trays

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Chris Hall
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Re: Makin' Trays

Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:35 am

Sorry, Chris, i wouldn't begin to think of criticising an assigned project, and it is clear from your response that your criteria was attained in an excellent way by Paul. Before I posted, I read the thread closely and couldn't seem to find where the layout was specified with the degree of exposed joinery that is shown in the completed project. I didn't properly ascertain the concept. The first posts showed the design, but it didn't seem clear that entirely through dovetails were the assignment. I might have well missed something, but I wanted to make no mistake. I figured the aesthetic was an individual choice. A critique is indeed unwarranted, so my apology to Paul as well.
That's okay Dennis, you were late to the party I guess. Forgive my grumpiness. The topic of the toolbox is broken up into multiple threads so finding such info is not straightforward, and in truth I don't always take time to explain the rationale behind the joinery choices in this situation. I figure that the project is complex enough without adding in a discussion of technical options - though I do have some discussion of such anyway.


I struggle with the issue of whether to expose joinery or not in every piece of furniture I make, pretty much. Largely what drives the decision making process in recent years and months has been to configure the joinery on the basis of no adhesive and placing a high value on demountability/repairability. This has moved me away from the type of concealed joinery work the sashimono-shi like. But they don't build things with an idea of making them last as long as possible, now do they? They also make products within a culture where one may expect the handling of the piece to be more gentle over time than in the west.

I place the joinery choice very high in importance, however overall form would be more important. In other words, find the joinery to solve the problem, not find the form to suit the joinery. The good thing is that overall form can often be achieved with a number of different joinery options. My first choice is generally towards a demountable connection, where a pin can be driven out and the parts disassembled. Next is a connection where the mechanism is obvious, but the pin or wedge would need to be excavated. Next in preference are connections, like hell tenons, which cannot be taken apart except destructively - these connections I try to restrict to sub-assemblies. Least preferable are connections which are concealed and require glue to hold together. In the last to preferences mentioned, the problem is that the joint is concealed, so someone coming to repair the piece down the line cannot be expected to discern that a concealed connection can even be reversed. For example, a carcase corner using secret mitered dovetails - even with the use of a reversible glue, I suspect that a person looking at the assembled joint would simply presume that it was fastened with non-reversible glue and was simply connected with one of the more common expediencies used these days.

My admiration for classic Chinese furniture is greater than for any other, and their combination of using very hard woods and demountable construction is something I want to emulate.
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Brian
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Re: Makin' Trays

Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:23 pm

I think your Ming table accomplishes that very successfully. It is intuitively well built before one probes further, with a minimum of outwardly exposed joinery but enough that you know that thought was put into every aspect of the work. When you do delve deeper you find that what was originally perceived as a well made work is actually a masterpiece of complicated structure made outwardly simple. I like all of your work, but the Ming table stands out for me.

I think it is good, as a craftsman, not to be consumed by the revealing of details. As much as I feel the details make the piece, the piece cannot be made of details. I want people to recognize the hours of labor invested in a project, but it's probably best that they appreciate the object for what it is prior to attempting to understand what is invested in it's creation.
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Paul Atzenweiler
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Re: Makin' Trays

Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:15 pm

This is an interesting discussion. This particular project, if for a customer, might (might) appear a bit "busy" and may well be designed differently in that case. But this is a joinery study/model that has the benefit of being a functional/usable piece after its completion. In the case of these trays, I couldn't think of another glueless corner joint to use and still use thin stock (I'm sure it exists-I just couldn't think of it at the time) and the tenons were really the star of the show which is why I exaggerated them with contrasting wedges. If I were making this for a fellow craftman I may very well intentionally put as many exposed joints as possible because he/she might appreciate them more than someone else. I think some work is appreciated more within the circle of other similar artists.
In a time long gone, it would simply be assumed a cabinet with corner joint would contain a row of hidden dovetails (or some other appropriate joint). With today's construction techniques, you don't know how things are put together and many (most?) people may not care. Is that good or bad? - depends who you ask I guess. If I am buying a handmade piece of furniture I would expect good joinery to be on of the ingredients, but that's my back ground and what I care about. If furniture is something taken for granted it doesn't matter the process involved in getting to your house. I am certainly no one to judge that by the way - for example, I drive as part of my job but I don't spend any time thinking about how my truck is put together (at least not until if fails). In Brian's bench build (which I looove) he has exposed joinery consisting of tenons and wedges which I think add to the piece. Another piece he makes may have hidden joints/fasteners and also look wonderful. Dennis' screens look awesome and shoji screen in general don't lend themselves to exposing their joinery (for the most part) but knowing the crazy precise and intricate joints are there make his work better (at least to me). I love Japanese wood block prints and knowing that a print block maker spent days/weeks carving 15 different blocks for one print is amazing (and important) to me. I could probably get just as good and vibrant color and more detail from a computer printout - but it simply would not be the same. Cabinet maker Kintaro Yazawa's furniture would not be the same without his joinery on display. I guess what I am (stumbling over myself) saying is that knowing the process is sometimes an important part of an object. Sometimes things sound better in my head.
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Dennis

Re: Makin' Trays

Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:07 pm

There certainly can be a combination of different motivations or goals that go into a piece of woodwork that translate into how it is executed. Recently i was visiting the largest temple in my area, the priest there being a client of mine and we are talking about a project to build a desk, that now seems to have more turned into making a low table, so I had another chance for a leisurely walk through the place. The temple has a very large congregation, over 900 households, which means that it is a wealthy establishment. Holding Buddhist funerals is very profitable business, people often get sent off to the spirit world by way of an elaborate goodbye. The temple reconstruction about six or seven years ago was to the tune of around seven million dollars, with an attached office and meeting area for the priest, and on the other side to the main section, a very large hall for temple attendees to gather in large numbers and do what they do, including dine and drink a lot of sake after a service. A large kitchen aids in that. Most of the timbers used in the two years of construction project, grew on the mountain behind the temple, a lot of land comprises the temple property. The construction took three years, with the trees to be utilised fallen well in advance. There is a fantastic abundance of very clean and masterful work with great wood, that has gone into the construction done by the specialised carpenters, with much in the way of challenging joinery techniques exposed or at least insinuated, particularly on the exterior, but given the scale of the structures, regularity and frequency with which the techniques are expressed, it much blends together and is all relatively lost to the eye, unless one makes an effort to isolate and contemplate the details. I am rather sure that it occurs to few people to make an assessment of how the place is put together. There seems both a loss and beauty to that at the same time, the beauty is some manner of harmony that surrounds you, that doesn't compel much more than to simply bask in it. The loss is perhaps in not recognising the skill level that has gone into providing the opportunity. Except for some passage areas, the entire surface under your feet is tatami mats, which also adds a soothing element to the environment. If one is talking about woodwork for tatami mat rooms, particularly in private residences that tend to be rather plain interiors with traditionally little being set permanently upon the mats, and of perhaps a generally quieter effect than most western home locations, woodwork of simplicity and subtle details seems to best fit such a room. Such a room is a very good setting to reveal details, but it also begs the choice to use restraint when employing them. Too much personality in a piece makes it stick out in an unfriendly way. This discussion makes me think that there is also culture involved in making things, both as it applies to the locations where the goods will be used, and also within the context of the desire for self expression by the individuals that produce the work. Japan is a country of very contained or even restricted self expression, western countries tend to be vastly different. In the better work, I mean things executed through contemplation and skill, I think the differences in approaches becomes more apparent. Technique and the revealing of it, can be something that gets looked at in quite different ways. A man can be an elderly woodworking national treasure and never have exposed a tenon! In part it can be how they were raised. On the other side, not simply being a craftsman can be insufficient for recognition, becoming an artist too with a knack for louder individuality, is what brings excited clients to your door. Sam Maloof rocking chairs might be an example. Lots of very good craftsmen in the west, as exemplified by individuals here at the forum, if they don't want to be boisterous in their work, it seems that to a large extent, they end up making things for themselves, plus considering the reliability issues, that if you need to sell to survive, good clients sift through one type of hype or another to get to what is a solid and fundamental and trustworthy vision of what they want to own, that is what has been produced within the calm. Small subtle pins that hold things together, you have to like the work if aiming for clients that will enjoy respecting that approach, or simply want to believe in you.

I'm fascinated by some older gardens in Kyoto, where the gardeners have designed these places to lead your eye in a certain way, at least so it seems to me. They have the detailed manicured individual plants, how they combine, and then there is the natural woods behind where little attention is given to any manipulation of it, that part provides the setting. The foreground runs into the background in a most pleasing way, both contrasts and harmonises at the same time. The overall effect must have been the goal, but there are also the individual elements there to aid in the enjoyment of the place, but done in such a masterful way in that there is no clash. Especially considering how trees and plants are going to grow, i can only marvel at the people of old that had a vision for such things. Probably a way of seeing that has been lost to a large extent in contemporary times. I guess that not many people these days want to sit and write poems to the moonlight that filters through their garden, or pluck the strings of the Biwa to form a mood with it.

Woodworkers discuss construction a lot, the longevity to be expected over time by way of using certain methods to put things together. It's the heart of the matter certainly, but you don't often see people discussing what it is that gives a certain piece a longevity of design appeal or otherwise. More details or less details? I recall looking through the Taunton press design books, seeing certain pieces and reacting like the dog in the movie, "Mask", when itself it had the mask on, it's tongue sticking out a foot and it's eyes bulging way out of their sockets. After the initial excitement lessens though, I have to ask myself if the visual effect is going to last with so much going on in your face from the initial look. Good for the Smithsonian perhaps, but in someone's house? I like subtlety in work, and even though not subscribing to the "less is better" theory as a philosophy or religious persuasion to model after, I also think that well chosen details used contemplatively and with caution, is what helps to keep interest in a design and perhaps best manifests over time the maker's intent. A whisper over a shout, perhaps. We don't give time to things anymore to aid in their richness or to allow us to better get to know them, or have a hope of the to be found contribution that long term use brings, it's a real problem in society.
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Chris Hall
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Re: Makin' Trays

Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:31 pm

I think there is definitely a case to be made against a thing which is durable and ugly. We've all seen those pieces which are built like a brick shit house yet have no beauty. The first thing that comes to mind is "waste of good materials".

Perhaps the relative richness of detail of a piece should be weighed against the scale and complexity of the piece. Having too much going on is overwhelming. Having only form and no detail can be bland. I guess there needs to be some reason for the eye to zoom in and out.

Where the line is located in terms of a balance between the overall form and the amount of expressed detail is difficult to gauge I think.

Remember that to many Western eyes, a Japanese room looks extremely sparse, though it is in fact often rich in detail. Coming from a cultural environment featuring continual sensory bombardment of all kinds (advertising, calls for attention, I mean), to one in which quiet repose is the order of the day can be a shocking experience funny enough. It can seem as if there is nothing to anchor against. Enough time needs to pass by for things to settle before the defensive shield can be dropped - only then can the eyes and mind wander out into the scene a bit to see what they can discover. Some perhaps have become so conditioned to bombardment that they have largely lost this facility, who knows?
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Dennis

Re: Makin' Trays

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:16 pm

I make very infrequent trips back to the states, but when I do, I look forward to leaving the airport and seeing how wide the streets are. It's a little shocking, familiarising with the scale of that element of the place. I think that you are quite right, Chris, we do develop certain familiarities that sort of take over as the norm, when sometimes contrasts aren't mixed in from time to time to contemplate.

It's interesting to me about the Japanese room, it's subtle and balanced with the way the wooden part's element is projected and scaled. I guess one could say that in many instances it is a kind of perfect. I wanted to play around with the space, so I made some simple and small scrolled wooden pieces to set where the corners meet above eye level, only a few inches in size, and not permanent but just sitting up there. I like the effect of the minimal ornamentation, it adds a bit of interest and fun to my eye. You don't really see them per say unless your eye falls directly upon for some reason, and then there is some little unexpected as a result. I'm not at all sure how the purists would look at such an adornment, highly likely unfavourably. I wouldn't expect a carpenter to consider the option. I see nothing wrong with having a little fun with design as well, like with how small details can do, Fun to the maker, hopefully fun to the user as well.

A friend of mine teaches the tea ceremony, has a wonderful traditional house with a magnificent garden, her husband being a gardner. I get invited to have tea every now and again, but talk about a bull in a tea shop. Her specialised tea room is off in a corner of her house, a magnificent small space, only a four mat room, done most expensively well in what must be the perfect order of such things. I became interested in the little trays and movable support platform that get used sometimes during the ceremony, I offered to make her something to see how it might be done a little differently, with the thought that they could be a potential product to market. What I had seen, though they have the overall visual effect to fit the room and purpose, nothing really special about them. Kind of flimsy really. Perhaps I am over self indulging again, but to my mind, the quiet and contemplative atmosphere would be a perfect place for the tea drinkers to possibly focus in on some small item of woodwork, a worthy combination of purpose and design. She squashed my idea though, right off the bat told me most adamantly that the things had to be made within a very specific parameter of design and to the exact specified dimensions, then they get some kind of stamp as being official. The maker of those goods might be required to have a stamp for himself as well, it occurred to me. It could be one reason why they get so much money for what they produce as well. It was disappointing, and though my friend is a very casual and fun lady to associate with in most all respects, a charming woman, when it comes to the tools for her tea procedure, it appears to be written in stone what she can use. A little odd, because the ceramic tea bowls and such can be of diverse design, but the woodwork allows no flexibility. It could be that her own teacher dictated that to her at some point about the hard rule. The few wood things are merely small items that are hardly a factor in the overall scheme of things, but that is how it goes. No fun.....
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Paul Atzenweiler
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Re: Makin' Trays

Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:25 am

. . . are we still talking about dovetails and tenons?
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Chris Hall
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Re: Makin' Trays

Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:36 am

. . . are we still talking about dovetails and tenons?
Oh yeah.
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Dennis

Re: Makin' Trays

Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:08 pm

When it comes to the visual detail of through tenons, when applicable I like to have them protrude a little and chamfer the edges. I like the look and It bothers me a little that exposed tenons shaved flat, be they in casework or chair seats, etc., seldom remain perfectly so. A minor thing, but still... Sometimes the entire face of the protruding lemon looks good when softly rounded as well. A larger through or protruding tenon can be made to look more smart by dividing it into two with a little space between. It seems to soften up the effect. Maybe looking for a crack though if banging in wedges, kind of tricky.
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Brian
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Re: Makin' Trays

Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:28 pm

Depends on the purpose for me, if they protrude through a work surface then they should be cut flat, but if they are not going to be interacted with then I enjoy the look of them protruding.

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