Hand techniques

[Brian]

Thanks Chris. Well there is a great deal of satisfaction in many aspects of this work in an above simple practicality.

The suita is a hard stone from my understanding.

[Brian]

Just another update on this;

I did quite a bit of research with the help of David Weaver who I know from Sawmillcreek and WoodCentral. David is an encyclopedia of sharpening knowledge and offered his opinion on what would work out for me in the way of Japanese Natural stones. So, I ended up purchasing a Shinden Yama Renge Suita stone of a slightly odd shape.

I have been working through blue and white steels as well as A2 on this stone, it is gorgeous to cut with and has really changed my sharpening. I've been, for quite some time looking for a stone I can return to in order to touch up an edge as I'm working, and this is doing well. Cuts quickly, leaves a nice finish.

Interesting part is that I've been really impressed with the finish left on the wood, which has been an absolute mirror on hard maple.

I've ordered a Kayoyama cordovan strop, which is affixed to a wood backing to touch up the edge off the stone. Palm stropping has proved itself to be quite dangerous when I'm exhausted.

[durbien]

If I might ask a personal question... About how long is your stroke?

What I mean is, what is the linear distance the edge of the tool moves over the stone on the forward push?

I've sharpened both with jigs and without, and I tended to use a stroke that went at least 2-3 inches; this is for all tools, and at all grits. Do you use a shorter/longer stroke, or a different stroke on different sized tools or at different stages of the sharpening process? Does using a jig affect your stroke?

The reason I ask is I have been conversing with So Yamashita(at Japantool) and he informed me his stroke on natural finish stones is only 3-5 mm, which surprised me. I'd also seen the videos Stu Tierney (toolsfromjapan) made where he uses overlapping small strokes (both up and down and side to side, to "get more even use of the stone"). I've also seen the videos from Harrelson Stanley where he shows a "side -stroke" method with his sharpening "skate", similar to the jig shown upthread.

What is the most common stroke length/technique in Japan?

[Brian]

Interesting point to bring up. For my low stones 1000, 3000 I use a jig because I use them to set the bevel. On those stones I use strokes that are about half the stone, so 4"~. On the natural finish stones I use shorter strokes or around 2", but now I may shorten them even further.

[Gadge]

I taught myself to sharpen and naturally used a rather long stroke. About 4 inches and never use a jig.
I visited So one day and was surprised when I saw him using that very short stroke but assumed it was just for final honing. He seemed surprised that I didn't know to use that stroke. Perhaps it's very common in Japan.

Gadge

[Gadge]

While this subject is active I'd like to comment on a sharpening problem which may be obvious to some but was a problem for me for a long time. When sharpening by hand it's often difficult to get the bevel to extend right up to the cutting edge. There is a stubborn little secondary bevel which doesn't want to get ground out. One day I realized it was because of the difference in hardness between the soft iron and hard steel. I've made an image to illustrate.

Hope it helps someone.

[Chris Hall]

Yes, as the drawing indicates, a common side effect of that issue - the jigane giving ground faster than the hagane - is that the bevel angle of the chisel will progressively grow more acute with every sharpening. So, even if you do manage to flatten out to the tip of the bevel, the acute bevel will tend not to last so long in all but the softest woods.

And it must be said that the difference in feel of hard steel to soft iron is something that comes through your fingers - - far better than when sharpening with any sort of jig.

[Chris Hall]

As far as the length of sharpening stroke goes, I think it should vary with the grit of stone being used.

[durbien]

OK, can I get a little more advice?

So Yamashita (at Japantool) has recommended a full-sized Yaginoshima medium-fine (12,000-15,000) stone for my first natural finishing stone, which he is selling for around $200 USD. He also mentioned that for half the price, I could get a razor-sized Nakayama stone in around the same grit.

He wrote that to obtain superthin shavings as in planing contests, he would recommend going into the 20,000-22,000 range, but that such levels of sharpness aren't required for everyday woodworking tasks and he would counsel against purchasing one of those as my first natural stone experience.

Do these stones/grits/sizes/prices seem about right? I am on the fence about the $200 Yaginoshima, as I can get a full-sized 13000 Sigma Power synthetic from Lee Valley for $100 and if I'm willing to wait a bit they eventually have free shipping. I've already experienced the joy of shipping rocks (and hammers!) from Japan and it ain't cheap. The smaller Nakayama would seem an OK compromise to me, as it's cheaper though smaller (but remember, I'm shortening my stroke to 3mm, so smaller supposedly isn't such a bad thing..). It'd probably end up being a wash as far as cost (vs. the Sigma) so basically I'd be paying the shipping cost for the premium of trying a (smaller) natural finishing stone.

I know nothing of the quarries or the appropriate grits - can anyone who has more experience with these particular stones be of help? I can post pictures of the stones if need be, but to me they all look like bricks. :0 TIA

ps What do you use to flatten your natural finishing stones? So recommended the Atoma 1200. I have access to a granite surface plate similar to Chris'; does anyone use sandpaper or lapping film on one of those to flatten stones of any kind?

[Mathieu]

Hi Durbien,

It is difficult to make statements about the natural stones mentioned. They would remain a guess unless you are able to test the stone over a certain period of time. Even one sharpening session on a stone will give you limited feedback. It is easy to assert a natural stone hardness just by using it ones but to understand the fineness of a stone takes some more time. It also takes time to get to know a certain natural stone and how to achieve best results with it. I think this is true especially for harder stones.
To say something about the price is difficult either. What is the size of the stone? #12.000 is a "normal" fineness for a natural stone. If it is fairly large and uniformly shaped without defects I guess the price is reasonable. It really depends what you compare it with.
I have been amazed by the amount of finish stones you can find in Japan for very reasonable prices. Of course there are also many superfine very hard and rare expensive stones which cost a fortune. But many very good (fine and not too soft) finish stones can be found for a reasonable price.

Most customers in the west looking for Japanese natural stones have little options how to acquire them. They look online and have no idea what they are looking for. Also salesman know this..
I have seen a lot of stones for sale that I think are overpriced. The more people that are in between the higher the price will be so you are not necessarily paying for extra quality but rather for more peoples service.
The other question is wether most of us have any other option then to buy from online dealers?

I believe Yamashita-san has a policy where you are able to return the stone if you don't like it. You may want to discuss this option with him and ask him more precisely about the characteristics of the stone. I am not sure if it will matter much since it is your first stone and you have little to compare it with. You need to start somewhere.

Atoma stones for flattening are very good. You get good repeatable results and it is easy to make a little bit of slurry without the risk of contamination from other grits. this is not true for sandpaper. Not sure about the lapping film but Atoma's are worth their price.

I love natural stones and can recommend them. The variety, feel and performance I find attractive.