Hi!
Nice to meet everyone and thanks to M. Hall for the great initiative.
I've been using japanese chisels and planes for about two years now, having some fun, but being frustrated most of the time. I've learned to set-up my kanna pretty well, same goes for chisel handles, thanks to all the great infos on the internet and mostly on the carpentryway blog. The thing I can't seem to get, though, is sharpening. I have a set of 10 large nomi (chu-usu nomi) made from blue steel, two kanna, one basic grade from Stu and an excellent Tsunesaburo blue steel. I just bought a Oouchi white steel anaya-nomi too. While I can sharpen the large kanna and the anaya-nomi almost like I want, since the surface touching the stone is big enough, all of my smaller chisels are victims or heavy rocking.
I heard many people say many different things on the subject, but nothing that helped me get better. Maybe it's just me, but now I'm thinking it might simply be the hand positioning. Would anyone want to share a picture of their successful (or not) sharpening positioning and explain some logic behind them?
I'll shoot mine today and post it after work.
Thanks in advance!
Hand techniques
- Brian
- Deshi
Post
Re: Hand techniques
Are you opposed to using a guide on small chisels? I use a guide for up to about 1/2" on 1000gt, then freehand the polishing stone.
- Chris Pyle
- Deshi
- Location: St. Louis, MO
Post
Re: Hand techniques
Didn't Chris say something about this on one of his blog posts? I have no advice, since I'm still a beginner with sharpening as well. I have yet to get a plane blade to stick to the stone.
Embarrassing
I'd be very interested in seeing how others sharpen. I wish all of our members were capable of shooting video footage of sharpening various tools: chisels, plane blades, various sizes of each.
It's so valuable to watch someone do it. I naturally grab, hold and move everything incorrectly with my western mentality of wanting control. In my minimal dealing with Japanese saws, they require a certain give and take, working in concert with rather than attempting to force. I believe someone else posted something about this in another thread and I find it resonates with me.
Anyway, just passing through...
![Embarrassed :oops:](./images/smilies/icon_redface.gif)
I'd be very interested in seeing how others sharpen. I wish all of our members were capable of shooting video footage of sharpening various tools: chisels, plane blades, various sizes of each.
It's so valuable to watch someone do it. I naturally grab, hold and move everything incorrectly with my western mentality of wanting control. In my minimal dealing with Japanese saws, they require a certain give and take, working in concert with rather than attempting to force. I believe someone else posted something about this in another thread and I find it resonates with me.
Anyway, just passing through...
- Brian
- Deshi
Post
Re: Hand techniques
For chisels I flatten the backs with 1000# grit, then cut the bevel angle I want (usually around 30-35 degrees depending on the purpose) and then move to the polish stone.
I polish the back first, then the bevel until I find a wire edge, then move to the back again.
For re-sharpening I generally recut the bevel with a 1000 grit stone then fallow up with the polish stone. After I remove the wire edge by polishing the back.
This differs for me from western tools in that for western tools most of the work is done on the back of the blade so that I can retain a small microbevel. If the microbevel become large I grind the primary. On Japanese tools I do not create a microbevel as it is my understanding that laminated blades prefer a wide primary bevel.
I polish the back first, then the bevel until I find a wire edge, then move to the back again.
For re-sharpening I generally recut the bevel with a 1000 grit stone then fallow up with the polish stone. After I remove the wire edge by polishing the back.
This differs for me from western tools in that for western tools most of the work is done on the back of the blade so that I can retain a small microbevel. If the microbevel become large I grind the primary. On Japanese tools I do not create a microbevel as it is my understanding that laminated blades prefer a wide primary bevel.
- AntoineLaMothe
- Raw Log Import
Post
Re: Hand techniques
I'm not opposed to use a guide, but since I can't even sharpen the larger ones, I feel I've got a lot more learning to do before relying on a guide.
Brian, the order of actions you describe is similar to mine, without the going back 4 times because nothing worked (ah!). I really think it's a matter of positioning, or dealing with control as Chris suggests. And I agree on microbevels, I came to the same conclusions.
I took pictures this morning.
First, Odate's technique. I used that for a year with no success. I feel that the hand holding the handle is a source of instability.
This one with both hands on the same side feels a bit more natural to me, and my fingers don't slip down the chisel.
A friend of mine who learned from a daiku-san told me to do it with my hands around the chisel, and with the chisel almost straight.
The last one is just how I usually end up sharpening when I'm just confused and tired!
Brian, the order of actions you describe is similar to mine, without the going back 4 times because nothing worked (ah!). I really think it's a matter of positioning, or dealing with control as Chris suggests. And I agree on microbevels, I came to the same conclusions.
I took pictures this morning.
First, Odate's technique. I used that for a year with no success. I feel that the hand holding the handle is a source of instability.
This one with both hands on the same side feels a bit more natural to me, and my fingers don't slip down the chisel.
A friend of mine who learned from a daiku-san told me to do it with my hands around the chisel, and with the chisel almost straight.
The last one is just how I usually end up sharpening when I'm just confused and tired!
- Brian
- Deshi
Post
Re: Hand techniques
Use whatever grip allows you to feel the bevel.
Make sure your stones are flat, if they are not flat, then flatten them.
If you have made a mess of the chisel then you will need a guide to get you back to square one. Once you are there you must learn to feel the bevel and maintain the bevel throughout the stroke.
Do not hold it with a super firm grip, just like sawing you want to become like a piston in a cylinder and a death-grip prevents that from being possible. Just let the stone cut, apply even pressure and make your bevel.
Correct procedure comes ahead of fast results.
I watched a video on a sushi chef cutting sashimi and it helped me realize something with regard to cutting with a saw, or sharpening a blade. Line your arm up with the motion so that you are not pushing in a curve, instead you are pushing in a straight line.
Make sure your stones are flat, if they are not flat, then flatten them.
If you have made a mess of the chisel then you will need a guide to get you back to square one. Once you are there you must learn to feel the bevel and maintain the bevel throughout the stroke.
Do not hold it with a super firm grip, just like sawing you want to become like a piston in a cylinder and a death-grip prevents that from being possible. Just let the stone cut, apply even pressure and make your bevel.
Correct procedure comes ahead of fast results.
I watched a video on a sushi chef cutting sashimi and it helped me realize something with regard to cutting with a saw, or sharpening a blade. Line your arm up with the motion so that you are not pushing in a curve, instead you are pushing in a straight line.
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Re: Hand techniques
That technique would only be suitable to working long chisels, like slicks, however you are correct that the separation of the hands tends to promote instability. For long handled tools, like slicks, I prefer to remove the handle before sharpening anyhow, which takes away any need to support the end of the handle.AntoineLaMothe wrote:
First, Odate's technique. I used that for a year with no success. I feel that the hand holding the handle is a source of instability.
This is similar to the technique I use.AntoineLaMothe wrote:This one with both hands on the same side feels a bit more natural to me, and my fingers don't slip down the chisel.
This is a poor technique in my view unless one is quite careful. It is not good to draw the chisel backwards against the bevel as it can tear the wire edge away, leaving a jagged edge. Your hands obscure the tip of the blade, so your view of the action is compromised.AntoineLaMothe wrote:A friend of mine who learned from a daiku-san told me to do it with my hands around the chisel, and with the chisel almost straight.
Best to take a rest instead!AntoineLaMothe wrote:The last one is just how I usually end up sharpening when I'm just confused and tired!
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Re: Hand techniques
What kind of polishing stone are you using?Brian wrote:For chisels I flatten the backs with 1000# grit, then cut the bevel angle I want (usually around 30-35 degrees depending on the purpose) and then move to the polish stone.
I polish the back first, then the bevel until I find a wire edge, then move to the back again.
For re-sharpening I generally recut the bevel with a 1000 grit stone then fallow up with the polish stone. After I remove the wire edge by polishing the back.
This differs for me from western tools in that for western tools most of the work is done on the back of the blade so that I can retain a small microbevel. If the microbevel become large I grind the primary. On Japanese tools I do not create a microbevel as it is my understanding that laminated blades prefer a wide primary bevel.
- AntoineLaMothe
- Raw Log Import
Post
Re: Hand techniques
Great help here, thank you.
Probably true that using a guide at least to reshape the bad ones can be necessary (at least to me).
Chris, I've been able to sharpen my anayanomi without taking the handle off, but it's like gym for the hands! Taking the handle off seems like trouble to me, maybe I should try to make it a habit.
Probably true that using a guide at least to reshape the bad ones can be necessary (at least to me).
Chris, I've been able to sharpen my anayanomi without taking the handle off, but it's like gym for the hands! Taking the handle off seems like trouble to me, maybe I should try to make it a habit.
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Re: Hand techniques
It's no big deal to take the handle off of longer slicks. In the case of the anaya nomi however, not sure that removing the handle will noticeable reduce cantilevered weight.
Some Japanese guys rig up a device to allow the upper end of the tool to be supported, freeing the hands to concentrate only on the business end:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afjPwdUCI38
He's using it with a regular chisel, which seems a bit pointless, but you can see how it would work with long handled tools.
Some Japanese guys rig up a device to allow the upper end of the tool to be supported, freeing the hands to concentrate only on the business end:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afjPwdUCI38
He's using it with a regular chisel, which seems a bit pointless, but you can see how it would work with long handled tools.
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