Table Build
- Vips
- Sweeper of Floors, Maker of Tea
Post
Re: Table Build
Together with the cabinet builds, I'm really enjoying these build posts from you Brian. I'm new to the forum and I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your participation throughout the threads I've read.
Looking forward to further updates
Vips
Looking forward to further updates
Vips
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
- Brian
- Deshi
Post
Re: Table Build
Thanks Vips!
Chris, I have a question for you,
I plan to use half dovetail wedged tenons on the stretcher, I took a look at how you did it for the MFA gate, and was wondering would you also wedge from the inside of the joint for furniture?
I'm debating a few methods and trying to picture how they will apply wedging pressure, and if one approach is better than another.
My thought was that often times it is wedged from the inside on timber frame due to the fact that more often than not it is a blind joint.
Hoping I can trouble you for insights into the proper method
Chris, I have a question for you,
I plan to use half dovetail wedged tenons on the stretcher, I took a look at how you did it for the MFA gate, and was wondering would you also wedge from the inside of the joint for furniture?
I'm debating a few methods and trying to picture how they will apply wedging pressure, and if one approach is better than another.
My thought was that often times it is wedged from the inside on timber frame due to the fact that more often than not it is a blind joint.
Hoping I can trouble you for insights into the proper method
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Re: Table Build
Brian,
there are several variations on the joint between nuki and post. The drop down half dovetail, or sage kama (sah-gay-kah-mah), is but one of them. Maybe if you could share a sketch of the completed connection (the aesthetic you are looking to realize), and I can offer you options....
~C
there are several variations on the joint between nuki and post. The drop down half dovetail, or sage kama (sah-gay-kah-mah), is but one of them. Maybe if you could share a sketch of the completed connection (the aesthetic you are looking to realize), and I can offer you options....
~C
- Brian
- Deshi
Post
Re: Table Build
Thanks Chris, here is what I'm aiming at;
This one shows two wedges, which has me wondering if the inner wedge only model is for blind tenons mostly.
This one shows two wedges, which has me wondering if the inner wedge only model is for blind tenons mostly.
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Re: Table Build
I know you didn't make that drawing, but in the interest of correcting mis-information...
'shitage kama' is a misreading of 下げ鎌. It's read 'sage-kama'.
...and the joint detailing is wrong on several fronts.
Now that I've thrown the toys out of my pram...
This connection is between the stretcher and leg of your table, yes?
You want the stretcher to penetrate right through the leg and emerge out the other side, yes?
That type of joint is generally used as a terminal joint at the end of a stretcher which does not pass right through the post, and generally the whole works would be covered over with the wall infill. It can be used as a pass through joint, but really there are better options which result in much the same visual appearance afterwards. It is not a connection which would generally be used on a piece of furniture, not to say it is against the law or anything.
Are you interested in this joint form for a particular reason, just curious to try it out, or??
What are the size relations between leg and stretcher, or have you not decided that yet?
'shitage kama' is a misreading of 下げ鎌. It's read 'sage-kama'.
...and the joint detailing is wrong on several fronts.
Now that I've thrown the toys out of my pram...
This connection is between the stretcher and leg of your table, yes?
You want the stretcher to penetrate right through the leg and emerge out the other side, yes?
That type of joint is generally used as a terminal joint at the end of a stretcher which does not pass right through the post, and generally the whole works would be covered over with the wall infill. It can be used as a pass through joint, but really there are better options which result in much the same visual appearance afterwards. It is not a connection which would generally be used on a piece of furniture, not to say it is against the law or anything.
Are you interested in this joint form for a particular reason, just curious to try it out, or??
What are the size relations between leg and stretcher, or have you not decided that yet?
- Brian
- Deshi
Post
Re: Table Build
Ahh, thanks Chris. I see people using it on workbenches and beds, and the like, basically anything where you may want to dissemble it at some point.
I doubt the coffee table will ever be knocked down, but wanted to experiment a bit. In the same situation I know that a typical through tenon will work fine, but I need some variety in my life
So, now knowing that this is probably not an ideal joint for furniture but still curious to try it all the same.
My post is 4" x 1-7/8" and my stretcher is the same.
I doubt the coffee table will ever be knocked down, but wanted to experiment a bit. In the same situation I know that a typical through tenon will work fine, but I need some variety in my life
So, now knowing that this is probably not an ideal joint for furniture but still curious to try it all the same.
My post is 4" x 1-7/8" and my stretcher is the same.
- Chris Hall
- Site Admin
- Contact:
- Location: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Post
Re: Table Build
I think I would look at a cogged and wedged joint instead of sage kama.
Is the 1:1 sizing of post to stretcher an important part of the design, or could the stretcher be made thinner? It's advantageous to make the stretcher thinner than the post, not for the least of which is that the chamfering of the posts won't leave a gap at the junction without getting into more elaborate joinery.
General proportions. Where the width of the post being 6, the stretcher width then 4, and the tenon width is 2 might be considered as the 'ideal'. Other proportions are of course possible.
A more 'furniture like' connection there would be overlapping half tenons, which can also be detailed so as to be demountable, in at least a couple of ways.
Is the 1:1 sizing of post to stretcher an important part of the design, or could the stretcher be made thinner? It's advantageous to make the stretcher thinner than the post, not for the least of which is that the chamfering of the posts won't leave a gap at the junction without getting into more elaborate joinery.
General proportions. Where the width of the post being 6, the stretcher width then 4, and the tenon width is 2 might be considered as the 'ideal'. Other proportions are of course possible.
A more 'furniture like' connection there would be overlapping half tenons, which can also be detailed so as to be demountable, in at least a couple of ways.
- Brian
- Deshi
Post
Re: Table Build
Apologies Chris, I should have specific in the original post when I said I planned to use, I meant I had cut out the dovetail. So, not trying to waste your efforts here but I was more wondering why people seem to debate the three methods of wedging. Inside, outside or halving.
I'll replace it's use in the future with cogged and wedged as now seeing it presented to me, it does make much more sense to use it, since it seems it will square up without extensive tuning. Where it seems the dovetail is more appropriate in situations where the frame is already square and one needs a blind method of installing the stretcher.
Interesting thoughts on the proportions. I probably rely upon golden ratio a bit too heavily, but when I do so, I do it in plan view, rather than thinking like you are laying things out here (post to stretcher to tenon). Your proportions make sense especially for stuff that is laid out similarly to framing members.
I'll replace it's use in the future with cogged and wedged as now seeing it presented to me, it does make much more sense to use it, since it seems it will square up without extensive tuning. Where it seems the dovetail is more appropriate in situations where the frame is already square and one needs a blind method of installing the stretcher.
Interesting thoughts on the proportions. I probably rely upon golden ratio a bit too heavily, but when I do so, I do it in plan view, rather than thinking like you are laying things out here (post to stretcher to tenon). Your proportions make sense especially for stuff that is laid out similarly to framing members.
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