16" Moak jointer

[Chris Hall]

Sale cycles are weird, to tell the truth. You could look for years in vain for a 20" jointer, and yet in the past month or so there have been several available for sale. I'm shaking my head

If the Martin doesn't work out, here's another machine:

http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machin ... 83796.html

I'd suggest calling Ed directly instead of wasting time with the email. His cell is 516-317-2895. He's based on Long Island.

[Chris Pyle]

My god that is a monster. The fence looks like it'd weigh a few hundred pounds.

And how is the fence attached on that one? It's a bit hard to tell from the pictures as it looks like it was just balanced on the tables

[Chris Pyle]

This is a neat machine but I worry about replacement parts:

http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machin ... 83897.html

And then, I know you weren't pleased with your oliver but this is another monster jointer I hadn't seen before:

http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machin ... 83876.html

Any thoughts on this?

And finally, this looks like a fantastic tablesaw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtyUnnt6Pv8

[Brian]

Chris, I had a chance to take a photo for you yesterday;

[Chris Hall]

This is a neat machine but I worry about replacement parts:

http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machin ... 83897.html

Well, I guess you could ask the seller about that, since he is a member of the forum. Not sure about parts availability currently, however you would certainly need to obtain any parts from Japan.

And then, I know you weren't pleased with your oliver but this is another monster jointer I hadn't seen before:

http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machin ... 83876.html

Any thoughts on this?

Yeah I saw that one too, and it certainly is an unusual model. I had never seen an Oliver before with the unequal length tables, which really is the best way to do it and I wonder why they didn't carry that through on later models? The side tilt table for creating draft is something seen on other patternmaker's jointers, like from Northfield and Porter. If you don't do pattern making, I doubt you would ever use it.

I'm not convinced as to the virtues of an on-board blade grinder, especially on a machine like a jointer which is inherently so sensitive to differences between knife cutting circle and outfeed table height. The Oliver I had showed, by scars on its cutterhead, that it had once been fitted with a blade grinder, and they had skimmed too deep one day. I don't really care much for conventional fixed knife systems any more, put it that way.

And in the video they mention the motor brake - well, they understated the case, as it is near-useless, in my experience, unless arm-wrestling is your cup of tea.

That machine though has a super-nice scraped bed, which, if it were on a thick concrete floor, should mean that the machine works well. Hopefully the fence is also scraped and straight too!

And finally, this looks like a fantastic tablesaw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtyUnnt6Pv8

I also like Japanese cross-cut table saws. Ishizu is a less common brand but it looks like a decent machine. One thing I don't like so much is the rail for carrying the sliding table, as it sticks out kinda far behind the table and would be in the way I would think. It's nice though that the machines are designed to be fitted with a wooden strip next to the blade, which would allow for zero-clearance cutting and would be easily replaced in case blade deflection chews it up.

[Chris Pyle]

Brian,

Thanks for the picture of the inverter. I'm assuming it's the AF-300 C11 box and it's placed in close proximity to the breaker box since it looks like you are running some heavy gauge over to it? Is it a 60 amp line being run into it? And does it power more than one machine? That looks like a great set-up.

Sorry for asking so many questions, I'm sure google could uncover some of the mysteries but I was just curious about your father's particular arrangement.

Chris,

As to the Oliver, Moak, Martin jointer situation.

The Moak could likely be had for $2200-2500 with a little negotiating. I think a Tersa head is bit too spendy for this machine but this wouldn't be a bad addition: http://www.holbren.com/home.php?cat=547. This Moak comes with a phase converter/inverter (can't remember which) so assuming I could perform the retrofit myself, we're looking at $4k + a little to have it in my shop. Now, I'm going to see the Moak on Saturday and taking my straightedge and feeler gauges to assess the tables and fence. I only have a 36" but that would give me enough of an idea. Do recall the price to grind the tables? I was think it was in the neighborhood of $1k, depending on the shop. So, $2500 to start, up to $4k+

The Martin already has a quick change blade system and it's priced at $4500. I'm estimating a $1500 delivery fee so $6k+ to have it in my shop. As a reference, a Byrd head for the Martin would run an additional $2400 http://www.holbren.com/home.php?cat=540. I don't know if Martin would have any additional Tersa heads stocked for their jointers, and whether they could get near the price of the Byrd head. I'd also need a phase converter/inverter so tack on $1k. It may be a moot consideration if the quick change knife system performs well. $7k to start, up to $9.5k if retrofitting a head.

Finally we have the 24" Oliver. $6k is the asking and I don't imagine they'll come off that very much but maybe there is room to negotiate. The tables appear to be in great condition since they've been scraped. An upgraded head is $2500: http://www.holbren.com/home.php?cat=839. This also requires 1k for phase converter/inverter. So $7k to start, up to $9.5k with 8" more width of jointing surface.

How thick of a floor is required for a machine like this? I hadn't even considered whether or not special footers would need to be poured to handle this. I know people often do that for power hammers and other large machines in a "reduced footprint" but I was hoping the ~8ft spread would disperse the load enough that the typical garage floor could handle it. Is this a poor assumption?

This is a difficult decision as I don't know how often I'd need to joint something over 16. The closest jointer is the cheapest to own and retrofit but will it perform well? The Martin carries the quality name and is probably the "safest" purchase. The Oliver offers monster capabilities for the same price as the Martin.

This is not an easy decision given the price discrepancy, brand quality and capacities.

[Brian]

Chris, exactly that box and breaker are dedicated entirely to the mill's main motor. The gearbox motors which run the x and Y along with the lamps and DRO all run on single phase.

Not sure how many amps...sorry. It runs only that one particular machine. Amazingly he's been able to get some pretty heavy duty single phase machines, but i guess it's very uncommon for milling machines. He has a 7hp motor on a 36ton 'ironworker' machine, single phase.

As you can see my overboard-hobbyist ways run in the family, lol.

[Chris Hall]

Grinding time for machine tables is directly proportional to how out-of-flat they are, since the machining charge is an hourly one. Doing the three tables on a Felder combo machine cost me $1500. Doing the tables on an ancient machine they had at the College of the Rockies was $800, but it was a poor job. Grinding the tables and fence on the Oliver was $1000.00. Those are all done at different facilities with different equipment, but it gives you an idea.

Sometimes, you can grind a table, latent stresses get released and the casting will move afterwards and be out of flat - something you should know in assessing the possibility you will need to get something ground. Also, large jointer tables are quite heavy and you will need some sort of hoist to tackle the work - or you can take the entire machine to a machine shop and have them grind the entire jointing surface as a unit, though this approach has its problems too.

If I were you, facing the same choices, I would be looking at a German machine, Martin first, then the Bauerle or the Schneider. Go with whatever cutterhead they come with, and if it works then fine. I'm sure they will be adequate, and next year, or three years from now, whatever, you could opt to upgrade the cuterhead to something else. Terminus heads are a cost-effective option I can add to the mix.

You have a lot of choices right now- it's an unusual period of time in the jointer market.

As for table width, it's nice to have it when you have tear-out prone woods, as you can skew the feed across the cutter. Also, you can change the fence position from time to time to expose different portions of the knives so as to have a much longer period of time between knife sharpenings. There are benefits to the width besides being able to handle wider stock. To me, having a long jointer is more important than having a wide jointer.

[Chris Pyle]

Thanks for the answers Brian and thanks Chris, that's what I needed to hear.

Just left my name and number for Eddie, waiting to find out more info on the jointer and what the bottom line is to have it shipped over.

This will probably require that I stick with my FIL's lunchbox planer and little INCA for a while. Need to produce some things for my wife before moving forward with any other purchases.

[Chris Pyle]

Just kicking this back up:

I called Ed and it sounded like we were on a short path to a deal on the Martin jointer but when I contacted a couple local rigging companies, they wanted to charge me another 800-1000 just to move the jointer from a freight truck to my trailer. I thought for sure someone would do this for a couple hundred bucks, as lunch money, so to speak.

And it appears the local Moak just sold so now I'm back on the hunt. In the meantime I've managed to acquire a couple other tools to fill out my shop. My wife's grandfather passed away a couple years ago and left a garage filled with stuff. One of those things was a Walker Turner wood/metal bandsaw that needs a complete resto. I have it almost completely disassembled, then I'll begin the cleaning/rebuilding. It is absolutely covered in filth. I don't know if I'll use it for woodworking since it's variable speed drive is really geared towards metal.

I also found a steal on a 1950s Sheldon lathe that was built on a government contract. Apparently it has all of the bells and whistles (per a knowledgable poster on another group) but it's going to take some time for me to understand the drive mechanism and to clean/oil/grease it up.

Finally, a fully rebuilt/restored drill press was available so I purchased it as well. Early runout near the top of the spindle reads 15 thou. It is a 3 phase motor running on a VFD.

Still looking for a jointer and I've been watching this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wadkin-Bursgree ... 4897.l4275

If anyone sees a quality 16-20" jointer come up or a quality combo, please post it up!.